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Shits and Giggles with HR Episode #1
What is Right About the Recruitment Industry Could Be Written on a Stamp!
Join Lisa Haggar and Katrina Collier to discuss what is wrong with the recruitment industry. The horror stories of people going through 6 rounds to get a job and then getting no reply, or how people receiving job offers then leave their job, only to be told that the job they applied for & won, has been made redundant before they even start!
Sharing Resources Mentioned By Katrina in the Podcast
- Katrina’s Website
- The Robot-Proof Recruiter
- Getting back to people:
- https://circlebackinitiative.com/
- https://end-ghosting.com/
- Places to feedback:
You Can Read the Shits and Giggles with HR Episode #1: What is Right About the Recruitment Industry Could Be Written on a Stamp! Transcript Below:
Darren A. Smith:
Let’s start. Welcome to the Shitz and Giggles with HR podcast. We’re here with Lisa. Haggar, Lisa. Say hello, please.
Lisa Haggar:
Good evening. Hello everybody.
Darren A. Smith:
And we’re also here with Katrina Collier. Hello, Katrina.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hello.
Darren A. Smith:
Hi I’m your host, Darren Smith. We’ll come back to these lovely ladies in a moment. Our topic for tonight and I’m going to blame Lisa for this is what is right about the recruitment industry could be written on a stamp. Katrina, I’m just gonna come to you and ask what’s your name in this game? What do you do?
Darren A. Smith:
Let’s stop listening.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So I am best known as the author of the Robot Proof Recruiter that I have been in the recruitment industry for nearly two decades, and I spend most of my time delivering design thinking workshops to fix candidate experience and recruitment. And I also have a coaching and mentoring group that’s probably me in a nutshell, but plenty plenty of experience in their recruitment and talent acquisition space.
Darren A. Smith:
Brilliant. Brilliant. But we wanna get into that and ask you what’s wrong with this industry. Let me just come to Lisa for first. Lisa, what do you do?
Lisa Haggar:
It’s a good question. I tell people I knit Jelly for a living because when you tell them the work in HR, it switches people off quicker than if you’re the tax man. So I knit Jelly Darren.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah. It’s. OK. That’s good.
Lisa Haggar:
Or otherwise known as the ******** from HR Queen of HR on LinkedIn, the opinionated small 5 foot blonde who has a lot to say about most things.
Darren A. Smith:
Lovely. And how do you guys know each other?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
LinkedIn.
Lisa Haggar:
Uh, Katrina’s fabulous, and I know everybody who’s fabulous on LinkedIn. Simple.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Is it LinkedIn? I don’t know how we know each other. That’s hilarious. Yeah, LinkedIn.
Lisa Haggar:
It is, yes, yes, I remember. I remember the day we met Katrina. Do you mean you? You can’t remember that wonderful time? I don’t know.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Well, thank you both.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Menopause.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm.
Darren A. Smith:
Thank you both for joining us for ***** and Giggles, HR podcast. Katrina, let’s start with you. So at the topic is what’s wrong with the recruitment industry? What’s wrong with it?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Ohh I thought it was what’s right with it that you could write in the back of a postage stamp.
Darren A. Smith:
Ohh, actually let’s start the then. See even better what’s right with it.
Darren A. Smith:
But.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah, because that that really, really made me laugh. Because when Lisa sent me that, I just thought Katrina Collier. That’ll fit on the back of a postage stamp. And I thought, you arrogant little so and so, which just totally I was actually sent Lisa a voice note because I was laughing so hard at my own joke because I just thought it was so funny and so arrogant all the world into one.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But you know it.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That we have lost the human touch. That’s what’s wrong with recruitment. Somehow we’ve put all the tools and all of the technology and and even data, everything. We just put everything in the way of human connection because it really is about.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
One human trying to find another human to work with another human. This is complicated as that.
Darren A. Smith:
Yep.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And we’ve just, we’ve just made it.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So ridiculously complex with all this technology. Hence the book is called the Robot Proof Recruiter because it’s all about, let’s just clear out the technology that’s in the way and use it to create a better human connection. So that’s what I think I would be interested to hear what Lisa thinks having been through the recruitment process a few times.
Lisa Haggar:
Uh, yeah. What can I say is we do have technology which I get allows companies to be efficient and I’m using air quotes even though you can’t see me to be efficient in dealing with the thousands of people who may respond to a job advert.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah, like the 50.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, right. Yeah, right. The my biggest bug bear. And there’s a few. I’ll just list them in. No particular order is one they use a, you know, some kind of a TTS system, which from the HR departments point of view we talk about inclusion and yet it’s the most inclusive inclusion.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Umm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm.
Lisa Haggar:
It it just doesn’t, you know, if you don’t write something the right way, it doesn’t highlight it put you to the top of the pile. It’s not inclusive as in, you know, people who are neurodiverse. They may not have a three page full of word, CV. They might have an infographic CV because it expresses them how they need to be expressed and how they learn and how they need to read things. So it’s just not inclusive. And I love the fact that we have automation and yet you’ll go onto LinkedIn right now and on the bottom of nearly.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Umm.
Lisa Haggar:
Every single job advert says if you haven’t heard us back in four days, you haven’t made it love. Sorry about that. Move up. And yet it’s two clicks of a button on an eighth to reject somebody and I and it just blows my brain. It’s just lazy. Recruitment is my view.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
What’s? It’s not only that as well, it’s 86% of applicants.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
If they’re ghosted so they don’t hear back from the recruiter, become down or depressed.
Darren A. Smith:
Wow.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Now recruiters complain.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, it’s the effect you’re dealing with another human being. It’s disgusting.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah, well, yeah. But it’s, it’s that we we we create. We’re making people down or depressed. Recruiters get ghosted by candidates all the time. And I think you know what says you’re right. Cause you’ve been ghosting people for like 2 decades. So yeah, paybacks a bit. However, we don’t get when we’re ghosted. It’s just annoying.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
We get irritated, you know? OK, there’ll be some recruiters out there who probably like, well, I lose Commission. So I do get a bit upset. It’s like, well, yeah, you know, don’t bank it until they start, but it’s not the same as this poor job seeker who over and over and over is getting ghosted and is feeling down or depressed. And it was actually really interesting writing the 2nd edition.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Is to put some new examples in and I saw a girl had pasted her spreadsheet of her 32 applications as she put this as a post on LinkedIn and she showed all the times that she was ghosted cause to her just applying for a job and not hearing back was ghosted. And that’s really different to what recruiters think as well. So that’s certainly a big problem, and Lisa’s right you are more than capable of using it to send hopefully a slightly personalized, helpful rejection notice.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Uh-huh.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Sure.
Darren A. Smith:
And Katrina, just on that, the the difference in the ghosting there, can you just explain that a bit further so we as humans think that we’ve been ghosted by the recruitment person, doesn’t what what what’s happening there?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yes. So when somebody applies for a job.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I don’t think a recruiter thinks that if they’re not.
Darren A. Smith:
Umm.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Saying to them, no, we’ve gone ahead with other applicants. I don’t think they think ohh we are ghosting an applicant whereas the applicant thinks no. You’re ghosting me because I haven’t heard back. Even if they’ve never even had a screening call. They’ve never even had an interview. They’re like, well, you ghosted me. You’ve not come back to me, which is really interesting.
Darren A. Smith:
Hmm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So, but it’s the the fact is that no, not every single company has an applicant tracking system. I mean, in the startup world, they’re probably lucky if they’re on anything more than an Excel spreadsheet, but in general, people are more than capable of replying and letting somebody know and. And to be honest, even if they don’t have an applicant tracking system.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
As as that fury gave me this tip, she’s like, change your e-mail signature to a rejection signature that you can just then use and just quick shoot back an e-mail, change the signature, personalize it a bit, shoot it off.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But Lisa’s right. We’re still basing recruitment as well on somebody’s ability to write a CV and somebody’s ability to write a job description. So it’s all gone to shed immediately. At that point, there are no giggles.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm.
Darren A. Smith:
It.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Uh, I’m not surprised.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
No.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah. Because if you look at the job descriptions that are out there now, they’re all cut and pasted by someone else’s. Ohh I need a I don’t know. I need a brain surgeon. Well, not maybe a brain surgeon, but it’s like, oh, let me go find. Ohh. Yeah, let’s let’s just cut and paste 80%. I’d can’t remember where I read that recently, but 80% of job boards and job adverts are all cut pasted from whoever else has been doing it that time of the month before. So there’s no thought of care and attention gone into that. It’s also generic.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
And I’d say and it just, you know, comes back to if you’re serious about doing something and you know people in your business is where you’re gonna add the most value and the biggest risk and the biggest expense. And yet we seem to be cutting corners and the whole industry as a whole now don’t get me wrong, I I call out the HR industry as a whole, Darren, in many, many ways for various different things. So I’m not pointing fingers, just that recruitment. I hold my own to account as well, including myself.
Lisa Haggar:
But with the recruitment industry, it’s not, you know, not really governed. It has a set of, you know, practices of of best practice stuff. It’s not followed, it’s not governed.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So.
Lisa Haggar:
So there’s no kind of accountability on on how they behave.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Sorry, I was just gonna agree with you though now cause actually. So there were two sides here, by the way. So I’m talking very much about in house recruiters and talent acquisition functions. But of course there are also when we talk recruitment industry broadly, we are also including the staffing of the agency recruiters or executive search. And you’re absolutely right. But if I think about in house for a minute.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
There is. It’s extraordinary because I get to advise for some of the HR events that are coming up and they’re like Katrina, what do you think of this? And I’m like, well, where’s talent acquisition?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
What? Why? Where’s recruitment on this?
Lisa Haggar:
Yep.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Well, there’s like one word, you know, and the whole agenda, but they’re not really talking about it. It’s not on the HR agenda. It barely gets covered by the likes of CIPD and Sherm. It’s just left off. So that’s some of the problem. But going back to the job description problem, there has been so much emphasis on tools, technology and data that it’s almost like the human beings have forgotten how to have a conversation. So I am forever talking to recruiters about go and conduct a proper intake strategy session.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Yep, Yep.
Darren A. Smith:
That’s good.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Which talks about this so much, but it’s like go and sit down with the hiring manager, get under the skin of the role, get under, you know, the future of the role and you know these right now we should be asking questions stolen from Elizabeth Lunker. I ascend to add things like if we go into a downturn, can we keep this person, you know, these kind of really powerful questions, what’s the cost to the business every day while this roles open, nobody ever asked that question. You know, there should be absolutely hammering the hiring manager with questions. But creating a partnership.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I’m going to do this. You’re gonna do this, and together we’re gonna fill the role. And this is how we’re gonna treat the people coming through the recruitment process. Because if we don’t, they’re gonna get a bad candidate experience that’s gonna ruin our brand. Wanna come out, recruit in the future. And on it goes. But that human stuff.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
It’s like somehow the entire industry’s believed that technology can do that and I’m still going. There are tellers in the bank just for cash transactions. We need humans for carriers like give me a break.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Same.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So.
Darren A. Smith:
So Katrina, if I if I take you back then to the 1980s, to the 1990s, did it all work then because we didn’t have the tech?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Are we had technology in 1990?
Darren A. Smith:
Well, we’ll say, was it better?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I I was working in the bank then that was technology. It was it. I wasn’t in the recruit. OK. It should be fair. I wasn’t in the recruitment industry at that time.
Darren A. Smith:
Mm-hmm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I was actually in the bank and then I was in the motor trade and I came into it in 2003.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
However, it was simpler.
Lisa Haggar:
But I was in the HR industry and obviously was recruiting.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
It was simpler though, wasn’t it?
Lisa Haggar:
Yes. Yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Don’t you think it was just like I wanna talk to Lisa? There’s Lisa. I’ll call her. Lisa. We’ll answer her phone. Cause it’s ringing. It’s a very annoying sound. She wants it to shut up. So, Lisa, can you talk? Let’s talk about the job. Oh my God. Can I have your CV? Yes. Great. Or you’d send it in from a newspaper. Advertisement via post. And you would usually hear back.
Darren A. Smith:
Umm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
When there wasn’t the technology, but I think the the big, big game changer, I’m very where I’m dominating this conversation. By the way, the the big game changer was the Internet because it opened the doors and it shifted the power from the employer to the employee.
Darren A. Smith:
OK.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And that is also huge, huge shift and it’s never going to go back.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That’s it’s never going to get put back in the like we can’t hide how badly we treat people. It’s on the Internet.
Darren A. Smith:
So how much of the problem is the tech part and and obviously it’s people who use the tech. How much of the problem is the tech part and how much is it something else?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I’m going to let Lisa answer that because I’m talking a lot.
Lisa Haggar:
I’m no, that’s it said. I’m just listening, fascinated, cause. Yeah, I truly believe everything. You’re a secretary and a mirror of it.
Lisa Haggar:
I say.
Lisa Haggar:
Technology has its place, and we’re not saying it doesn’t.
Lisa Haggar:
But our human connection, that human time, I think we’re trying to again, we’re trying to do more with less and technology allows us to do that.
Lisa Haggar:
But when you’re building a brand.
Darren A. Smith:
Umm.
Lisa Haggar:
And when you deal with other human being, like saying the 1990s, you know, yes, we used to pick up the phone and have a conversation. Now we also get that we’ve got the complexities now of intergenerational ages.
Lisa Haggar:
Umm and abilities and.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
A lot more information about what people need, how they communicate than we’ve ever done before, and and that’s a, you know, for me, that’s a huge progressive move forward, but it also means that the technology that we used in the 1990s hasn’t really changed much. I mean, regardless of like we’re talking about recruitment, but if you think about PowerPoints around for like a an age and 1/2, we still using it now 20 years later and it’s like really.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm.
Lisa Haggar:
And so we don’t know how else to use it. We don’t know else to come up with. We just want something a funnel to to, to capture everything and then a funnel to automate it. So we almost haven’t got to bother with these little things called. Oh yeah, people in the middle.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And it doesn’t. It doesn’t work.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
It it was so it it was.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
I I’d like you say, and it’s one of the biggest risks that you got your business. No, it doesn’t. But again, you know intergenerational if I if I bring my son, he will pick up the phone. I have to text him.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Uh. But they’re so say it. Yeah. Absolutely.
Lisa Haggar:
Should I mean and so there is that complexity of a different generation who don’t want to have a phone call. But again, it’s about recognizing that and then finding the right medium to do that rather than ghosting and ignoring and using it to to not communicate. It’s just they communicate a different way. We don’t use technology to ignore them. We use it in a different way as my point.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah. And I think that the the ability to communicate has become ridiculous. So I’m trying to, and this person’s a friend. I’m trying to catch their attention and I have messaged them on three different platforms and I’m still waiting.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And it’s just like, what more do you need me to do here? Umm, there’s an arrogance amongst people about checking their spam or their filtered folder on their corporate e-mail that I just find unbelievable because, you know, if you, if you’re ever one of those poor people who your e-mail goes to the spam and people just you know, I would get so stressed because they don’t have their phone numbers on their e-mail signatures. So they then chase you for apply that you’ve already sent. But there were refusing to look in the spam. You then going how do I get in touch with them and it’s like.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
There’s applicants going through that, you know it’s bad enough. I’m a service provider. Fair enough. They want to ignore me. Whatever. But there, there are applicants going through that same problem. And there’s this arrogance of I I wish to be communicated in this way. And it’s like, well, no, you are the recruiter for the company. You will have every.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Channel of communication open and you’ll use it properly and you’ll ask people how would you like to be communicated with. You know you’re hiring manager. What’s the best way here? Because I know you’re not gonna go into the CTS and use it even though I want you to. What would you prefer? Oh, well, actually, I prefer WhatsApp. Is that OK? Or I prefer slack or whatever it is.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Umm, I mean actually if, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
And that’s the whole point is that communication of saying to people, how do you want to be communicated with rather than one shoe fits all and there’s the same approach we’ve been using for the last 10 years. It’s tired. It’s over. People should expect better. And and we should respond to what people needs. The market moves it no matter what industry you’re working at it, it continued the moves as it should do and. And you know, I just don’t think recruitment have moved in with it.
Lisa Haggar:
And yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
So.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
As she is so in some ways they have it. In some ways they haven’t. So sometimes the technology hasn’t kept up either. So you’ve got this situation where the applicant tracking systems haven’t kept up with what the modern recruiter might want.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah. Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So we’re a modern recruiter, probably loved to be able to run. I have no idea, by the way, there’s there might be one out there that does this, but run their WhatsApp through the ATS. For example, there’s slack through them. It’s just to make stuff easier. So they are communicating. It’s all being captured.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So I know there’s been that problem as well. You know people I hear. I mean, the number of complaints about the systems that they have to use, but it doesn’t excuse the fact that we constantly forget there’s a human being with thoughts, feelings and emotions.
Darren A. Smith:
So.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That’s just getting screwed over. Hurt hurts. A good word, yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
That get hurt in the process, which shouldn’t happen, which should not happen. Yeah, yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Mm-hmm.
Darren A. Smith:
And and if I’m a hiring manager out there and I’m listening to this podcast and I’m hearing you guys and I’m thinking, yeah, I don’t go to work to do a bad job. I don’t think I’m doing it wrong. What am I doing wrong then what do I need to do? Right. What’s causing this?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Well. Are you so if you’re in that hiring seat?
Darren A. Smith:
Mm-hmm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Do you really know how to articulate what you’re looking for in the role?
Darren A. Smith:
Since.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Are you working closely with your HRBP and your talent acquisition pro? Whatever they’re called, partner, they’ve got so many different names these days. You know, are you giving them a proper intake strategy session? Are you agreeing what the recruitment process is going to be like?
Darren A. Smith:
Yep.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Are you doing too many interviews? Are you know you doing full 567? If you’re doing that, your company has a blame culture, so there’s a bigger picture at, you know, a bigger problem at play. You know, it could be a lot of things. One of the reasons I started doing these design thinking workshops is because they get to the bottom of the problem.
Darren A. Smith:
Right. OK. And they get to it quick. They get to it quickly. So I’m not gonna sell myself here. I’m just saying the process and the thinking is like brought in from these amazing product designers. We’ve all learned to cut corners and make decisions quicker.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That’s kind of handy for that situation where.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
You know something’s going wrong, but you can’t figure out what it is. Whereas in the past, of course, it would be months and months of consultancy fees.
Darren A. Smith:
And.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So there’s even different thinking going on in that space to try and get to the bottom of problems, which is quite interesting.
Darren A. Smith:
You’ve done a lot of these workshops, Katrina. Are there 3 broad reasons that hit the 8020 or is it a multiple problem? Different problems?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Sorry, what’s what do you mean by 1820?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
No.
Darren A. Smith:
All they’re three common problems in all these workshops that they all get to the same problem is X, and we need to fix that. No. OK, so it’s different by.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
No. So it always comes it. Yeah, it always comes down to what the problems are in that company and in that specific hiring process or what, you know, whatever problem we’re dealing with. However, it does always come back to human collaboration.
Darren A. Smith:
Yep.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I think it has got complicated and I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better because everyone’s adjusting to hybrid working. But I collaboration chaos is a huge, huge part of it.
Darren A. Smith:
OK. And Lisa, I just want to bring you in here if I’m an applicant and I’ve been using Katrina’s term Ghost at a lot of times and I can’t get through and I’m pulling my hair out and I feel her, what do I do?
Lisa Haggar:
Ohh well I would do or what others should do that might be a different question.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Well, well, I think they’re probably two different things. So let’s start with what normal people should do and then what you would do.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah. But.
Lisa Haggar:
Darren is just you. Just on a podcast in front of lots of people called me not normal. Ohh.
Lisa Haggar:
Ohh nice.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Ouch.
Lisa Haggar:
Express some blowback from that one, not even from me. So no, seriously, I’m. Yeah, like you say.
Darren A. Smith:
Umm.
Lisa Haggar:
And genuinely, if it was me again, I am brave enough and courageous enough to hold people to account. So on the occasions where it’s happened, I go back and I say to people.
Lisa Haggar:
With respect, you haven’t responded or XY&Z can you give me reason why and if I get those response from them I go to. You know there’s a particularly large HR recruitment agency who I just went to the CEO and said this is my experience from beginning to end. This is your reputation and I’m very noisy on HR. I either become a raving fan.
Darren A. Smith:
Yep.
Lisa Haggar:
Over the opposite, how do you want to address this and?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Ohh. If we look. Ohh.
Darren A. Smith:
At Lisa’s, put yourself on mute, right, right, right in the middle of it.
Darren A. Smith:
So Katrina, what?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I think that’s that’s really cute hair layers.
Lisa Haggar:
No, it’s OK. It’s there was. Sorry I’m in a very public area and some people walking by, so I had to do it on the mute. So it isn’t here. It’s OK so.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Ohh, I thought you’d deliberately done it because you’re about to be like ohh I can’t really say that so I’ll just mute myself and pretend I said it. Yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
No, no, not at all. You can edit that bowl, Darren, you know, so sorry, I would say, yeah. So from that point of view, I hope to people to account, I give people the opportunity to think, OK, they’ve had enough time to respond. I don’t take, I don’t accept that. If you haven’t heard back in five days to take it, you haven’t got it. I go back and say I’m sorry, but that policy is awful. And do you know the impact of people that does that? And do you have an ATS system? And I start to speak to people within the business and ask them some questions. So I get very involved where I feel.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
It’s never received that way.
Lisa Haggar:
It’s a poor process because I believe in feedback and it’s done in a progressive, you know, respectful way, but I don’t think many people you know feel that they can give that feedback, OK and yeah, so all you can do is try to make, you know, give somebody some feedback and hope that they change.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And the fact. Yeah. Absolutely.
Darren A. Smith:
Well.
Lisa Haggar:
But for the people it gets, you know, I’ve known people like you said, Katrina, that you know, it really does have a massive impact on their mental health. And it starts to chip away at their confidence. So they start applying for more roles. And when they comes to interviews, they don’t pass interviews because they’re confidence is shredded and they start going well. Why not me? Like, this is my, you know, I’ve spoken to somebody very recently who had applied for over 60 roles.
Lisa Haggar:
And by the time we’ve got a conversation going and he said, I’m at my wits end. I’ve got to provide for my family. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. And now. I don’t even know how to apply because I my confidence is just shredded.
Darren A. Smith:
Well, watching.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah, we forgot it a lot. Umm.
Lisa Haggar:
But we did some work and we did some coaching work and three, three applications later and a bit of networking. He’s now got a great role, but this is the impact it has on human beings and we seem to forget that we seem to forget that it’s a treat. People, as you wish to be treated. And if you’re not, and because always remember especially like in recruitment and HR, you know what it’s like both sides go, you know, if you’re sitting, you’ve just been made redundant. You’re sitting on the other side. The amount of people that I hear give feedback about all I’ve been treated dreadfully.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah, yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Lisa Haggar:
And yet, when they were in the role, doing exactly the same thing, they were even worse. And it’s like, yeah, the shoes on the other foot. Now let, let’s remember, always treat people with respect. If you’re really busy, go back and say I’m really sorry. I can come back in last week, I really meant to. It’s just been crazy. But here’s an outcome. Give somebody something, even if it’s a thanks. No thanks. Because, you know you automation can allow you to do that even in a very.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm. Absolutely.
Lisa Haggar:
And you know, very just everybody gets the same standard one, I don’t like that, but something is better than nothing. So when they have that spreadsheet, they can then tick off and say ohh, unsuccessful. OK, I’ll kick that off. It’s the not knowing that drives people crazy.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hmm, exactly and by.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah, I would agree with that dunk. Umm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
By the way, I’m yeah. Sorry. I just want to add to that several, several things actually end hyphen ghosting.com or the circle back initiative are both initiatives that one you can go and see those stats I’m talking about. But you can get more information and you can sign up as a company to say we will get back to everybody, hence like circle back.
Darren A. Smith:
Asking.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So there are campaigns that you can certainly join as a company to raise your standards for the recruiters listening. Stacy’s Apar who many of you will know her name. She does, she suggests and I talk about it in my book the the Feedback Blitz on a Friday, just set aside half an hour even if you have no feedback to go back to absolutely everybody and say haven’t forgotten you. I’ve got feedback or I haven’t got feedback and sort of do that blitz so but also if you’re not doing any of this and you’re not feeling as audacious as Lisa who’s quite prepared to.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Take it up with the companies in question, which is like it. It is a really tough thing to do because most of the time they just don’t care.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Yep.
Lisa Haggar:
Umm.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But there are they’ve got rights of reply. You can leave interview reviews on Glassdoor on indeed, on kununu I could go on. There are so many of them. There are so many places you can leave reviews, but people are also talking on sites like Reddit under recruiting hell for example. So it’s all being said I could when I did the update again with my book it was there was so many fresh examples with what Lisa was saying. You know, so many recruiters were fired in 2020 and it looks like it’s happening all over again.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But they didn’t learn. They didn’t. The empathy and compassion isn’t there, and it’s just staggering.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But people are now writing on LinkedIn. You know? It’s not like it was when I started out in the world of work where you couldn’t see all the other jobs out there, and it was a world of fear. You didn’t leave a job without another one. And all this kind of stuff. Now it’s like I don’t care. I applied for this job. I went through three interviews. I did a panel, I did this, and I’ve got, like, a cold knockback or I’ve got no feedback or whatever, and they just write it on LinkedIn and tag the company in.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
So it’s a different world. Companies need to sit up and pay attention, but fundamentally, humans need to sit up and pay attention. Because we are treating humans really badly, we’re treating our peers badly. To stop it.
Darren A. Smith:
And something you should. No.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yes. Lyme culture.
Lisa Haggar:
Can I just jump in there on one little thing? Actually, Katrina, which is she knows as my absolute absolute bug bear of the whole thing, that when people are interviewing, I still don’t understand that. Please anybody who’s smarter than me, which is probably nearly everybody I know, come and say to me, explain this to me. Why they feel the need to have to go and have three stage interviews, four stage interviews, five stage interviews. I went for an interview. Look about 12 months ago now and.
Darren A. Smith:
Wow.
Lisa Haggar:
It was eight stages altogether. Door to door, with presentations, with workshop, with panels and Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan. It came to 43 hours worth of my time.
Darren A. Smith:
Wow.
Lisa Haggar:
And that’s.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, because they can’t make a decision now, but I. Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Blame culture. That’s why, Lisa, you don’t you don’t wanna work there. They can’t make a decision. Because if I hire Lisa and Lisa’s shift, that it’s on me. So I’ll pass it on to somebody else.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah. Yeah. Ohh.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That’s it. They have a blanket you don’t want. It’s like the biggest red flag to a job seeker. Literally. If it’s more than three interviews, run, run, run. Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Uh.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, but they still do it. And and like you say, so were the opportunities. I’ve. I’ve stayed for the long haul just because I wanted to get to the very end to say, OK. And that one in particular. I felt so passionate about wasting my time and actually just wanted to steal my IP of the ideas. I sent them an invoice. And I’m just saying it’s not right for everybody. But that’s what I did for my time.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
As you should, as you should.
Darren A. Smith:
At Lisa, can I just? I just wanna clarify 43 hours of what presentation traveling. What else was included in that? So this.
Lisa Haggar:
No, no, that was just up interviews and and present. Yeah. So. So there was a presentation. There was 1/2 day workshop, and a panel interview. There was another interview, there was doing something with the team. Yeah. Yeah, there was. They called them challenges. But it was it was just put people through the they were presenting you with a problem that they currently had in the business and I get that that site said OK can they help us out that’s not a problem but bear in mind I then found out that they had another 10 candidates all doing the same thing. They used every single one of them and they didn’t actually fill the job.
Lisa Haggar:
They just took it as a. A. They wanted their iPad. Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
Wow.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, everybody’s IP. And we went in, we solved all their problems for free and they cracked on.
Darren A. Smith:
This.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah. So there are some really. Ethical companies out there.
Darren A. Smith:
No.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah. So so honestly, anybody listening who just literally if it’s more than three or four interviews like run and actually there are there are companies out there, Skype betting and gaming is one of them. They are giving out the interview questions ahead of time because they’re making it fair for people who perhaps you know do have a learning disability or are neurodiverse. And by doing that, it means it’s not a memory game. Now. I mean I I joke with Lisa earlier and it’s just spent menopause about something I couldn’t remember.
Darren A. Smith:
Yep.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And when we were talking about when we were, I don’t remember cause menopause like and I need the questions in advance because otherwise the interviews and memory game ohh remember a time when you did this and tell us about it. I could be sitting there for 10 minutes whereas if I’ve got the questions you can go in prepared with the conversation ready to go and then you expand out on those. So I’m loving that that’s happening so it’s not all bad out there.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, but again, you’ve got you’ve got the old coat, you’ve got the old cohort saying, well, we can’t do that because we’d like to put see how people work under pressure, which again it’s just so lame, isn’t it? I mean, it’s lame. Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Well, again, that goes back to if you’re having a proper intake strategy session. If you’re developing your talent acquisition team to have those conversations and explain, then you you can win the hiring managers over. And if you start going a look, uh, I know Bob over there used to feel the same, but actually he’s discovered that he’s having better interviews. What are you just give it a try, but they’re not taught to influence and to stand up, there’s some. What did I write my LinkedIn article this week escalation fear almost like the the.
Lisa Haggar:
Yes. Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Someone will go up so Darren will escalate it because he doesn’t like the fact I pushed back on him so he escalates it, then it comes across to my boss and comes down and there’s quite a lot of fear of that or there are just people places. But it’s again, it’s all human stuff. We’ve just got so far away from it. But you know, it’ll keep me busy for years to come.
Darren A. Smith:
Here’s the chat. I’ll give Katrina Lisa a break for a moment. Here’s the challenge for anyone listening. If you have done a process like Lisa and it’s more than 43 hours, we’d love to know. Let’s see if someone got to triple figures. That really would be depressing, but equally quite amazing. Alright.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But I would, I would wonder why they put themselves through that epitome of hell.
Darren A. Smith:
Yes, cramps. I mean 43 hours.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I don’t think any. Yeah, I think 43 hours. Lisa, you’re crazy, woman. I would have told them to ****** off.
Lisa Haggar:
I just. I just hug until the end because I thought I have to see how far this goes because it seemed like this endless pit of time was like, how many more can there be others? Two more. You got to the two. Or there’s one more. There’s one more. And there’s a panel. Like, can you? If you told me in the beginning this is gonna be like 1010 rounds and probably gone 2 rounds with Mike Tyson is just cut this short. A lot of just like I don’t got at that point. No, thanks. But it wasn’t even disclosed all up front. They just kept adding and adding and adding it was. Crazy. Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That there is such, I mean that is just the most enormous red flag for the company. So. But you know, there are so many different things that can be wrong with one company’s hiring process.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And that and again I mean not meaning to plug myself, but the the joy of doing these design thinking is because it will work out which one it is. And that’s it’s why I love it. Because it’s just it is complex, as you’ve heard, just from this conversation. It could be so many different things. But unfortunately all of them are putting the poor human coming through the process at a disadvantage and giving them a really bad experience. So.
Darren A. Smith:
It certainly does feel like listening to both of you that this the industry is a meat grinder. It’s just churning people through and it’s not right.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
No, not every company is doing that, but unfortunately there are companies doing like yes.
Lisa Haggar:
Too many.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah.
Darren A. Smith:
And.
Lisa Haggar:
Too many for. Yeah, yeah. We definitely need to see it change.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
The the world’s changed. The world has changed so much, so fast. And like Lisa was alluding to, with the different generations and you know, the the Boomers are gonna retire just from natural progression into retirement and and we’ll see more change happen. You know, the digital natives are in the workforce now, you know. So they’re gonna have Gen X and millennial leaders and it’s it is going to just change.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But it it’s hard. You know when you’re used to working one way, that’s all you’ve had your career, and you’re in your little bubble. It can be quite hard. And to to realize what you’re doing.
Darren A. Smith:
But.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
It’s just again, you know, sometimes people just need to get out of their bubbles. Sometimes people I’m talking to as well have not applied for a job in five or ten years, so they have no idea what the experience is like now. And it has changed so much in just the last decade. Umm. And and here’s some Kleenex.
Lisa Haggar:
And that’s what I say to people I always say to my will tell you what, go out and apply for some jobs and then tell me about your experience and then take that learning and reapply it. And the fact that they say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It’s like if you go.
Darren A. Smith:
With with we’re coming up to the last few minutes of ***** and giggles with HR and listening to Lisa’s experience. There was more shifts. That’s.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I thought he said we were only here for 20 minutes and we’re still talking.
Darren A. Smith:
No. And listening.
Lisa Haggar:
You treat her. You and I could go for days without drawing breath.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Absolutely.
Darren A. Smith:
A listening to Lisa’s experience, it was more shifts than giggles. Faulty 3 hours. Well, I’m just going to ask you both for a minute of either top tips or advice. We’ve got HR leaders out there listening to this, thinking that I want to do a good job. I care about my brand. I care about my company. I care about people who are coming to me. Lisa, what can they do? Simple practical device.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah, but let’s say it’s do the right thing. And everybody knows what the right thing is. So regardless of what you’ve currently got in place.
Darren A. Smith:
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Haggar:
Ignore it.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Haggar:
Don’t follow the rules, do what’s right, and they’re not always the same thing, but be able to look yourself in the mirror, even though you might have, you know pisssed Bob off because you’re not done it the way he likes it. The fact is that you’ll get better candidates, better candidate experience, which will help for your burn. So just on, say, in one sentence, all I would say is do the right thing. And remember, you’re dealing with a human being and that could be anybody’s.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
OK.
Lisa Haggar:
Grand Aunt, daughter, anybody. They’re all somebody’s family. And that’s who you’re dealing with.
Darren A. Smith:
Thank you, Lisa and Katrina, you’re passing thoughts.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And the and the reason. The reason I’m giggling is an Australian any Australian hearing this is like do the right thing, put it in the bin. Ohm.
Darren A. Smith:
OK.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Sorry. Sorry Lisa, I got the giggles there. Umm. Parting. I mean, it’s huge. It’s huge I think.
Darren A. Smith:
Yes.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Do the right thing. Be kind, be human. Remember that we are playing with people’s lives. 2023 is going to be a really interesting year. I mean, the 20 is so far have been anything but roaring. They’ve been horrific and. We are already saying companies, I mean it as I’m writing that post that you saw, you know, there was somebody who sold up.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah. Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That had the offer. They had the signed offer. They sold up their house, their car, everything to move from South America to the north of Europe. And the offer got rescinded 3 days before.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Recruiters do not work on a role unless the role is going to be kept. Doing a downturn. Hiring managers do not open a role if it’s not gonna be kept during a downturn. HR obviously the same thing, right? Stop it. We play with people’s lives. Most people are only a couple of paychecks away from being out on the street. We’re in a cost of living crisis. Things are getting worse. So be kind. Be sensible, right? Really think it through. If you cannot hire. If you cannot keep somebody through a downturn, hire A contractor.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Hire A freelance or there’s plenty of those they understand. But just really think about the lives you’re playing.
Darren A. Smith:
Thank you. Thank you, Trina.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
That was definitely not a giggle.
Darren A. Smith:
I’m just thinking that wasn’t the deal. That was a very sobering thought, but one we needed to hear.
Lisa Haggar:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah, because I’m fed up. I’m just fed up. There’s just.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah, I mean that the whole thing with me, with the whole technology pace is you know, I was in the bank when the automatic teller machines were coming in and people were like, your jobs are gonna go, there are still cashiers in the bank for a cash transaction, right? We’re never gonna give our careers to a robot, but we have to make sure that the humans that we’re giving that our career to understand.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
But they’re playing with our life that it’s, you know, it’s so incredibly critical so. Ran to over didn’t fit on the back of postage stamp.
Darren A. Smith:
Thank you. Should change. No. But. Like.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
I tried to collapse.
Darren A. Smith:
That brings our episode, which was what is right about the recruitment industry, could be written on a stamp. Thank you, Lisa.
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Lisa Haggar:
Can I also? But can I just say one, one last parting thought which is?
Darren A. Smith:
Yeah.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Umm. A great. My client.
Lisa Haggar:
There are also, I mean, I know we’ve we’ve talked about the worst case scenarios and all of the bad things because we want to highlight it and bring it up that that’s how bad it can get and why it’s important to get it right. But there are a number of recruiters out there who are doing a really, really great job in doing it right and they tend to be the smaller startup, the boutique ones, the very specialist they’ve got. Yet your clients. Yeah. And so I generally want to heartfelt this. Say thank you to every single one of them. And they know who they are.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yeah. Absolutely. No.
Lisa Haggar:
They know the impact they make on people’s lives, keep doing what you’re doing, keep showing up the rest because you may be small, but you are powerful and you are the way forward, so don’t fall foul of thinking because I know I’ll look at one of my bigger competitors and I should be like them. Hell to the no, you stick doing what you’re doing. Do it with integrity. Look yourself in the mirror and your business will thrive from that. From the quality and the respect that you give out versus throwing enough **** at the wall because you got Commission. Which too many of them do.
Darren A. Smith:
But.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Agencies.
Lisa Haggar:
That’s it. That’s my. That’s my.
Darren A. Smith:
The treatment. Do you have a last thought based on what Lisa just said?
Katrina Collier (Guest):
No, because we’re just listen, I’ll keep one upping at each other for the next hour. So no, no. But I think she’s absolutely right. We have talked about the worst and and there are exceptional recruiters out there on both sides who are doing amazing things. So I just think it’s time for us just to remember humanity like, just kind be kind. Just be kind.
Darren A. Smith:
Alright, well, well, let’s leave it with big.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
And put it in the bin, obviously Lisa.
Darren A. Smith:
But.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Yes.
Lisa Haggar:
The UK version of sorry Darren, are we allowed to say a bad word or shall I bleep it out? OK, so.
Darren A. Smith:
Yes, shifts and giggles with HR. I think we are.
Lisa Haggar:
So Katrina, yours is put it in the bin. The English version of that or, yeah, is put it in the bucket bucket.
Darren A. Smith:
Ohh. I thought.
Lisa Haggar:
Thought you might like that one.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
No, I meant actually rubbish on the straight Axel.
Darren A. Smith:
We’re closing our podcast of put it in the bucket bucket you have been listening to ***** and giggles with HR, with Lisa. Thank you very much and with Katrina.
Lisa Haggar:
Very welcome. Thank you for having me.
Katrina Collier (Guest):
Thanks. Thank you very much.
Darren A. Smith:
Thank you very much. We we hope to be here weekly on our 20 minute podcast that will last probably an hour and thank you for listening. Take care of everyone.
Lisa Haggar:
Thank you. Bye.
