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Sticky Learning Lunches #24: Having a Mental Health Conversation Bothers Me
Use this 4-part model of M.I.N.D to have an effective mental health conversation. This is especially important when working from home.
You Can Read the Full Transcript Below:
Nathan Simmonds:
Good afternoon. Welcome to Steady Learning Lunches with me, Nathan Simmons. It is Thursday. We’re just waiting for the last few people to join the room. Just gonna keep an eye on them as they’re coming in. Give it 30 more seconds just to make sure we’re all here. Good afternoon everyone. Vicki, great to see you. Tracy, Samantha, good to see you again. Carolina, Jason, Gabrielle, Darren, Colin, you know what?
Nathan Simmonds:
There’s a whole crowd of regulars in here and I’m really liking this. Get more and more people coming into these sessions and staying in these sessions, which is lovely. Good to see you too. Hello. Hello. You can say hello by the way, if you want to type hello and say hello to me. It is allowed. I like the engagement. I like to know that you are there and paying attention and all that. What are we covering today? Let’s get into this.
Nathan Simmonds:
Just as last few people turn out. Let’s say make sure that everyone we’re setting everyone up for success as we’re doing this. As always, first things first, mobile phones. Let’s make sure they’re all on flight mode so we’re not getting distracted. A hundred percent attention on you and what you are learning. Second thing is making sure you’ve got a drink hydrated, ready to go, and also making sure that you’ve got a fresh page in the pad ready to go as well.
Nathan Simmonds:
Good afternoon, Tracy. Clean sheet. At the top of the page you’re gonna write keepers and these are the things you want to keep hold of. These are the things you wanna remember that you, when you go back and read those notes, it’s gonna remind you and reinvigorate that thinking and come up with new ideas to keep the learning going and keep it sticky.
Nathan Simmonds:
Okay, let’s go in and other people can arrive as we get into this. Welcome everyone to today’s Sticky Learning Lunch with me. Nathan Simmons, senior leadership coach and trainer at MBM, making Business Matter, home of Sticky Learning. We are the provider of leadership development and soft skills to the grocery and manufacturing industry. I do with these lunches help you be the best version of you right now from where you are working from home and preparing to return to work in the near future. Let’s dive into this. Today we’re gonna be covering the D in the mind model
Nathan Simmonds:
Before we even get into it, how is everyone feeling? We’ve hit Thursday, we’ve covered some core co. We’ve covered some, you know, pretty, um, pinpoint content this week. How are we feeling at the moment about working from home Isolation? I wish it was another four day week, Vicki, that could be arranged if you want. How is everyone feeling? I must say great today has a bit of cabin fever by Monday and Tuesday. Absolutely, but now it’s great. Nice poor start, but recovering well. So good just about now. Nice, Colin. Good. Took an hour out to tie the garage and needed some variety.
Nathan Simmonds:
Sometimes we need to do this and quite frankly, Tracy, I cannot show you the state of my office right now. It has been a very creative week talking to a lot of people and my variety is gonna be later on today actually just clearing down my office and getting it back to some sort of normal good. Mental health is all about conversations. It’s all about having the different conversations and just checking in with each other and checking in with ourselves and seeing how we feel and what we need quick flash through. Then Monday, the m is all about mindset, yours and theirs.
Nathan Simmonds:
The I is all about importance. Where are you putting it? Where is the focus and the importance of making sure that mind the mindset is the number one element we’re looking at because we can’t move through the rest of the mind model until that mindset is in the right place.
Nathan Simmonds:
The n is all about network. It’s all about you, the team, and the support that those individuals can get. So whether it’s for your own mental health, who do you get support from, whether it’s for someone in your team or someone in your charge. How you help them understand where they can get that support from, what role models they’ve got, who can they learn from, who can they speak to? And at the same time, as I said yesterday, if that person isn’t right and they’re not getting the benefits of it from that situation, from that relationship, how do they then speak to another counselor or another support mechanism to still keep that forward? Momentum.
Nathan Simmonds:
This is about network. The D is all about direction. It’s all about the action. When we’ve got an understanding of kind of the, the, the mindset and we’ve got that person centered back to where they are, they’ve deescalated the emotions, the breathing, they’ve shifted the importance away from the thing that’s causing the anxiety or, or the flashback or whatever. They can see. They’ve got community and connection, then we can put the directions in place. It’s important to understand
Nathan Simmonds:
That what we have in this is the necessity to act. Mental health in the majority is still very stigmatized. It’s still stereotyped. It’s yes, it’s a million times better than it ever was, but at the same time it is still, um, there are still challenges and frustrations in there. Leaders don’t want to have the conversation ’cause they worry, they may say something wrong or they may put a foot wrong or they cause a problem. But as I’ve said before, you can say anything to anybody as long as it’s done with absolute love and respect. As long as you are being a human, you will treat people humanely.
Nathan Simmonds:
So the idea is that when we understand there is mental health conversation that happens, we need to act. Why? ’cause action creates traction. The moment that you put one foot in front of the other or one foot in front, first of all and take the step, it then encourages more momentum. It then encourages the next part and so on and so forth. So the idea with the direction is understanding all these parts is two key questions that we can start to ask. I’m gonna run out a whiteboard on this screen in a minute. I’m gonna have to turn the laptop around. Two types of questions we can ask on a WN and or a WE.
Nathan Simmonds:
This one I’ve pulled out of coaching habits by Michael Bunga. Wherever that book has gone, these mean two things. Means and what next and or means and what else? Two incredibly simple, incredibly powerful questions that are gonna help you get to the heart of a situation. Because when we’re dealing with mental health and in fact physical health in major situations, there isn’t one thing that you do. But I’m Susan, thank you for reminding me. I thought I was gonna remember that today we’re on big swing. Good, thank you.
Nathan Simmonds:
Regardless of whether it’s physical or mental health or wherever you are, there isn’t one size that fits all. If you have a cold or the flu, what do you do? Gimme some examples of things that you do to help get over a cold. Let’s see them in the, in the questions box. If you’ve got a cold, what do you do? Sleep. Take medicine. What else? Lem sip, hot bath soup. RST, gym it out. Drugs. Legal. I hope there was a caveat on that. Rest, gargle. TTP cup. What? So we have here, you know, 10 different things that we can do. Do you do just one of them when you’ve got a cold?
Nathan Simmonds:
Do you just go, oh, I’ll have a hot bath that will, that will make it better? No, and I know what the answer is, that you do all of them. You do the leip, you do the tissues, you blow your nose, you go to bed, you do this, you do as many as you can get your hands on because you know it’s the right thing to do to help you get over it. But it’s the same with our mental health as well as our physical health. There isn’t one thing that we do that is gonna fix it. We have to have a layer and we have to have multiple actions that are gonna keep us moving forward. Often though, when we are working with people in, in, in high states of, of stress, and then it’s very difficult for them to see the multiple elements.
Nathan Simmonds:
And we’ll talk about that in a minute. And it’s asked as leaders and HR professionals and support people to ask some different questions to help people see this in the different way. To understand where there are different options. Because as the mental health escalates, the our, our ability to think logically and soundly and come up with new alternative starts to shrink and starts to depreciate. So therefore we’ll be lucky if we can come up with one answer. And it’s for us as the leaders to nurture and support and, and help that person give the perspective, shift the focus and come up with some new alternatives.
Nathan Simmonds:
The simple questions that we ask. And what next or, and what else? Super easy. Let me give you three stories that I thought about earlier. Help you understand the power of these questions and when we use them, one comes back to mindset. Last week we had Jeff Birch here in talking, in talking and sharing around sales. And the thing that he shared with me a few weeks ago was this quote.
Nathan Simmonds:
And I, I’m gonna cherish this for a very long time, and if you haven’t heard this before, now is the time to write it down. A change inflicted is a change resisted, and it’s the same with mental health, uh, and personal and work and whatever. So remember that if you haven’t been down, do now do so now a change inflicted is a change. Resisted. So we’re on the allotment. I’m a king gardener.
Nathan Simmonds:
I like to grow vegetables and, and it gives us a chance to get out, luxurious place to be, uh, right now. And my daughter’s there and it’s hot and it’s sunny. So what’s happening in two allotments over is they have some friends. So we keep the social, the physical distancing, and they live right next to the, to the allotment and suddenly they turn up with ice lollies. And poppy hasn’t got a ice lollies, it hasn’t got access to an ice lolly. And she starts to freak out. She’s going, I want a lollipop. You know, she’s young, you know, all of a sudden that’s the most important thing there is to her. The brain starts to shut down because the stress reaction is starting to kick in. So the logical thinking is starting to, to diminish. All she can see is the lack of ice lolly.
Nathan Simmonds:
So Anna and I, Anna my wife and, and and Poppy’s mother, we say, well, you can have an ice lolly when you get home because we’ve got one in the freezer here that’s not good enough. She wants one. Now the brain’s starting to shut down even more rather than changing or, you know, trying to help deescalate the importance or, you know, come up with different solutions or, or it helped come. All we kept saying was, you can have one but when you get home, but Poppy won’t now.
Nathan Simmonds:
So what we did is we started to inflict that change or that that that um, that process, that outcome of yes you can, but it’s gonna be at home. You can’t have it now. It was rational and logical, but we were inflicting that route on her. The emotions escalated because we hadn’t checked in with the mindset and as we were inflicting that change, the level of resistance went up and the mindset started to get foggy. Who here right now has got children and who here now has had some serious meltdowns with their children for absolutely no logical reason, who’s experienced this in the last eight weeks? I’ve got a yep already.
Nathan Simmonds:
Who here in the midst of this meltdown with that child or with a family member, has said to themselves, this doesn’t make any sense. And then sworn several times in their head, because they can’t get their head, they can’t wrap their own, we can’t wrap our own logic around that child’s or individual’s logic. We’ve got some laughter coming up here. ’cause what they’re seeing doesn’t make sense to you. ’cause maybe they’re 5, 6, 7, 10 years old or even a teenager, and then we get frustrated.
Nathan Simmonds:
So my frustration starts to escalate and we continue to inflict the change on our daughter to say, this is what’s gonna happen. You don’t have a choice that impacts the mindset. Her emotions escalate. We have even more of a problem, full blown meltdown, and we’re nowhere near home. We’ve got a 20 minute, 20 minute walk before we get home, um, with this going on. So the reason I say this is, it is important that you always start with the first station on this train journey, which is all about mindset. You can’t go down the track to the next stations on that journey unless this is set.
Nathan Simmonds:
It’s almost like taking the train down the journey, but the engine hasn’t been connected to the passenger, um, uh, carriages. And by going into this place and trying to inflict a a direction and action, your own action onto that person is gonna cause more frustration. I hope this is useful and I hope you’re seeing some of the, the, the ness, how, how this relates into the conversations. It’s the same with any change practice in any business. If you try and force it without questioning or making sure that people are with you on that journey, they’re not gonna go. They’re gonna be pulling back rather than pushing with.
Nathan Simmonds:
The second, uh, story that I want to tell about this is understanding the power of what next. So where are we now? Crikey. So six years ago, five years ago, five years ago, I, I’ve shared a little element of this story. Previously, five years ago at the end of March, um, I was hospitalized quite seriously. I’d woken up with severe abdominal pains, thought everything was okay. It would, it would pass within the next kind of 24 hours, it would be okay. Um, and it wasn’t, uh, and things got pretty serious pretty quickly. Um, and this is the power of the coaching questions when we start to understand and what next and what else.
Nathan Simmonds:
So when we practice these things, we can understand that quote that I’ve shared before. You know, we don’t rise to the expectation, we fall back to the level of training. So when we look at the and what next question, I’ve woken up with severe abdominal pains. Seven days later I’m having, um, emergency surgery because I’ve got a hole in my intestine. Um, I lose 15 kilos in about 10 days. Um, yeah, and I won’t go into too many of the details, but it wasn’t fun. Um, I was a mess, you know, I was on multiple painkillers, couldn’t think clearly.
Nathan Simmonds:
I was having mild, um, you know, potentially PTSD type symptoms coming up because I thought my life was ended even though I coming outta surgery in the best possible shape that I could have done in that situation. As a result though, regardless of what was going on, the question in my head, and it’s the same principle with having the code and what next, what else do I need to know? Who else do I need to speak to and what next? Okay, I’m doing this. Is this better? Yes, this is making me feel better. Okay? And what next there was for me, there was no exception.
Nathan Simmonds:
There was only and what next? Okay, take the action and what next? And what this does is it creates hardiness. It’s not resilience. Resilience is very different. It creates that perennial hardiness that regardless of what the weather, regardless of what the storm, regardless of what you are facing, that you always take another step.
Nathan Simmonds:
It takes practice and then sometimes it’s hard. You know, the strongest roots aren’t grown in the, in the, in the richest soils, the strongest roots are grown in the strongest winds. So if we want to be stronger, if we want to be harder, we have to learn to ask ourselves those questions and what next? And just keep taking that extra step and say action creates traction. But there’s a caveat. Hope this is useful so far and I’m gonna come a couple of deep stories here with a little bit of detail. Hope this is useful.
Nathan Simmonds:
There is a caveat and the reason I share that story is because this is my view of the world. My version, my map of the world is not everyone else’s. How I see the world is different to everybody else, and that’s absolutely right and normal. So it’s about understanding. When you are having this conversation, as I’ve said before, and I’m gonna ask this question of you now, when you are talking to someone who is experiencing a moment is being challenged and you know, or the, the, the, the stress pot is overflowing, who is the most important person in the conversation?
Nathan Simmonds:
Remind me they are good. So it’s important we understand this and we keep them at the center of the conversation because this works for me personally and based on the way that I see the world, fantastic. Does it mean that they see the world that I see and they approach the world in the same world? Wait, do they know what I know? Not at all.
Nathan Simmonds:
So I had another situation, uh, previously in a team and that person was experiencing extreme physical mental cha mental health challenges because they didn’t understand how I saw the world completely by me asking and what next without checking into the network and helping them to see where they were putting their importance just came across as uh, disrespectful and you know, in, in some sense almost harassing. ’cause I believe in putting one foot in front of the other and making sure you are constantly calculating and computing what’s going on. Great, keep moving, keep marching. That’s not the way that everybody works.
Nathan Simmonds:
And I’ve learned that lesson when we are asking these sorts of questions, it is vital that they can see where they’re putting their importance and you ask those questions to help them do that. They understand all of the available resources they can plug into so that when they know they’ve done one. Same with the cold. I’ve done the tissues, I’ve done the le sit. Great, what’s next? What else can I do? This is your network. Who else can I call EAP, uh, charity organizations, crisis team, friends, whatever. When you are asking this person or as I was asking this person, they didn’t have full sight of these things and by me asking and what next?
Nathan Simmonds:
Just put more pressure on them, which then impacted back on the mindset and causes the emotion to then ramp up again. You learn these lessons as you go along some of these conversations and I wanted to share these with you to make sure that you see them and how these tools can benefit and and support. So as you’ve got these in place, then you can start to ask these questions and one, what next and what else? Because it’s them that’s gonna take the action. It’s them that have got, has got to take the action. No one else can do it for them. No one else can help them.
Nathan Simmonds:
It’s gonna be by them taking the action and following through on what they’re saying and seeing the cost if they don’t and the benefit if they don that’s gonna help them to cure or give support, you know, mechanisms that are gonna really support and push ’em forward and grow them or even give them the the right coping strategies and techniques that are gonna help them develop and have a full life mentally and physically. You can’t do that for them. So it’s gotta be done with the right set of questions to help them understand what it is is required that’s gonna make that happen.
Nathan Simmonds:
Time is 22 minutes past. I really hope that was useful. What are you taking away from today’s? Couple of stories that I’m sharing. What’s been useful? How can you apply this in what you are doing right now on and or good, nice and what next and what else? Just make sure that you do it with absolute love and respect. When you ask these questions, check in with them, find out where they are and ask these questions. Importance of checking out with them constantly. You have to start with mindset. Always. Everything starts up here first. You can’t have a conversation with someone that is not thinking rationally for whatever reason.
Nathan Simmonds:
Our mind are linking together. Absolutely same on and all good useful tools, useful questions. They also work just in a normal coaching leadership conversation as well. If you’re doing project management, if you are, you’ve got a challenge in your team or you’ve got something you wanna overcome, whatever. These questions are really amazing for this, but this super powerful.
Nathan Simmonds:
It just helps people to set the next steps. How you treat a cold, not just one treatment. Always mental health, physical health. We treat ’em the same way in truth. Um, oh I can’t remember Mensa, Mensa, corpo. A healthy mind equals a healthy body. I dunno the full quo in Latin, I can’t remember it. But no, if you keep the mind healthy, the body stays healthy, not in truth. It’s not chicken or egg upstairs first the body will follow
Nathan Simmonds:
Questions. Good. I’m glad this has been useful. I’m glad you can see how some of these elements are linking together. Some of the questioning techniques that we’re using. What questions have you got for me right now? And while those questions are coming in, mental health coaching cards, they are available on the website. They’re there to purchase. There will be a link in the chat box. They’re only five pound. Amazing value for what you get in there. Um, a whole raft of questions that takes you through each of these sections.
Nathan Simmonds:
And as I was doing that, I just thought of something, the story about my daughter when we were going to this change inflicted and not checking the mindset, all I did was go back to the mindset questions. I suddenly realized what we were doing and how we were working. And I went back to the mindset questions and asked her questions about her senses. I talked about, I asked her, what birds have you heard singing today? And the moment I did that, the focus shifted and she’s now thinking about the black birds or the chaffin or whatever that she’d heard singing and all of a sudden everything deescalates ’cause she came back into her senses.
Nathan Simmonds:
Are you planning any more webinars about mental health? Not at the moment, but if that is something that we want to look at doing or people would like us to do, then we can bring that to life. Next week we’re going to be looking at, there’s a couple of yes pleases coming out. Okay, we we’re getting some, uh, strong positive, um, call outs. We’re doing some more mental health work. We can incorporate that. Next week we’re gonna be looking at how to really, um, liven up the virtual presentation spaces and what we’re doing online in this, you know, sharing some of the hints and, and tricks that I use to make sure that we’re interacting and connecting even through video link, even through GoToWebinar.
Nathan Simmonds:
So that’s gonna be a couple of sessions next week. If we want more mental health, we can have a look at that and start, um, building some more content into that. What are the questions do you have for me right now on this beautiful Thursday? And the link for next week’s session is right there in the chat box, wherever it is on your screen. What else can I help you with right now in regards to the mind coaching model? Definitely an easy crowd today.
Nathan Simmonds:
No questions coming through. I’m comfortable if you are comfortable. The link for the coaching cards is in the chat box. The link for next Monday’s webinar is in the chat box. Um, how would you help your leader with his mindset exactly this? Just don’t tell him you’re doing it. If you see that person going into a mental health, they’ve got some questions coming through. If they’re going into a mental health spiral and the emotions are escalating and you do exactly the same for them as you would for anybody else.
Nathan Simmonds:
Again, it’s regardless of who it is, it’s always being mindful of the audience. It’s having that conversation. I need to, and, and maybe you have to pull them away. I need to have a conversation. I need, I need, uh, a moment of privacy with you to discuss something and it’s not talking about them or challenging them or, or, um, causing more anxiousness or anxiety for them because that you are, you are, you are flagging it.
Nathan Simmonds:
It’s in saying that I need, I need a a private moment with you. I’ve got, I need to discuss something, but your leaders need it more than any anyone. Now we have a huge problem with wounded leaders wandering around, not actually dealing with themselves ’cause they’re too busy trying to think that they have to be the one that is, is a hundred percent okay and they’ve got the answer to every problem and there’s nothing wrong with me. I’m okay Jack. It’s not like that. The higher you go up, it tends to get lonelier as you go up and you get promoted.
Nathan Simmonds:
And we understand that even in that we still need people in our teams and our support mechanisms, people around us to say, you know what Nathan, I can see your that, that something is challenging you. Can I help you? And that’s when you have the strongest teams when they know that you are, you know, I’m buoyant, I am extrovert, I am all of these things.
Nathan Simmonds:
And when I’m having that day off, when something happens, it’s because you’ve, you’ve grown and fostered a team that will turn around and lift you up when you are down because you’ve spent your time building them up and supporting them and, and helping to train them to be the best version of themselves. So if they need it, they need it more than ever. If they were in extreme position, how could the change concept question be reacted to gimme some depth on this one. If they are in an ex in an extreme position, how could the change concept questions be reactive to, again, it is understanding where our boundaries are with this. So
Nathan Simmonds:
When the prefrontal, when the neocortex shuts down, completely rational thought isn’t gonna get through. So occasionally it’s those kind of, um, foundational questions that may make the shift. If people are too far gone, uh, and we’re talking, you know, they’re fully into A-P-T-S-D flashback and they’ve gone above and beyond, you have to understand when you can. There’s only so much that you can do.
Nathan Simmonds:
There is a point where, um, as a, you know, as a mental health first aid or even a leader, there’s a line that you have to draw and then there is additional support that’s needed, whether it’s from hr, whether it’s because or you need an ambulance or you need to call the police to go to someone’s house. There’s, there’s a point where you, it tips over and it’s no longer our responsibility or we we’re, it’s gone beyond our area of expertise and our capabilities.
Nathan Simmonds:
With the mindset questions. As I’ve said before, if you are going into a crisis situation or someone who’s having anxiety, it is not okay to turn up with your deck of 99 cards or whatever with your mindset question. I’m just gonna ask you some questions from the mindset. People aren’t gonna buy that. The trick is with the lead in the leadership position and the support position is having those questions available so that when you see it, you walk straight into it and you go, ah, okay, I’ve got a couple of questions I can pull upon in my mental deck so that I can, because I’ve seen them in the, in, in, in the pack, I can then start using them. And you can start to just use different questions at different times to bring that person into the conversation.
Nathan Simmonds:
Giving them the narrative and that signposting before you go into it often helps people to understand what’s going on. As I’ve said, no, I’m here. The reason I’m here is I’m a mental health first aid. Now I’ve got some questions I wanna ask you to see how I can help you in this situation. Is it okay that I ask you some questions that’s gonna help, uh, potentially move through this a little bit faster? Would that be okay with you? Now, I guarantee 13 people right now in that box all just said yes for no apparent reason. Even though we’re not having that sort of conversation. ,
Nathan Simmonds:
The reason I ask the question is ’cause when I ask that question, I know where the conversation’s going to go and it’s not for me and my best interest. It’s for the interest of the individual that I’m able to ask those questions, help to deescalate just enough so that we can ask the next set of questions so they can get the support and do do what they need to do to take that action and move in the right direction. Hope that, does that answer the question? Yes. Good. Good, good, good, good. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for this week.
Nathan Simmonds:
Really enjoyed this week. Really enjoyed sharing the mind model. Enjoyed creating this unique model to use these coaching skills to use the, the experience I’ve got, the leadership experience, et cetera to help you be the best version of you. Virtual classrooms is something else we do as well. I talked a little bit about what we’re looking at in the future and combining mental health and combining the leadership, the self, um, the um, self-protection tools that we can use as coaches and, and as practitioners.
Nathan Simmonds:
Also got the virtual classrooms available as well, whose team, whose leaders, whose businesses would benefit from a conversation like this. And me sharing these knowledges with their teams to help them have even more robust conversations. Mine, whose teams would benefit from having these conversations.
Nathan Simmonds:
Virtual classrooms are available. We’ll get the link either in the chat box or in the follow up email. The last thing that we’re gonna do, we have a little gift coming for you and I’m gonna share this on my screen now. A nice easy handout for you to fold up, put in your wallet, give to the people in your teams that’s gonna support their conversations. Would this as a handout for them be useful for you? Yes, a hundred percent yes. Mine.
Nathan Simmonds:
Yes. We will also include this in the email to go out with the recording of this webinar and also with the link to the virtual classrooms so that we can build this conversation up and support your leaders being the best version of them. Truly hope that this is useful. Truly hope that you are gonna use some of these skills, share this, teach this to other people, please get this message out. Support them being the best version, uh, and let’s see how we can make the world a better place as a result. Everybody, have a lovely rest of your day. Really appreciate you being here and I look forward to seeing you next week. Thanks.
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