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How to Give Feedback Part #3
Need to have ‘That’ conversation but don’t know how, worried how it’ll be received, or just believe that if you ignore it for long enough it’ll go away? This 4-day training will dispel every belief you have about feedback, that you’ve been previously taught or learned by yourself along your leadership journey.
You Can Read the Full Transcript Below:
Nathan Simmonds:
Good afternoon. Sticky lunches he says, I forgot to get slideshow. There we are, we’re in. Welcome to today, it’s Wednesday. Colin’s in. Tim’s in. You know what? It’s an interesting thing that we see with, um, with our webinars and the sticky learning lunches and how they often start really high with the volumes of people in on a Monday and it kind of stays out and then it dips down Wednesday and then comes back up for Thursday. It’s a very purely a pattern. I have no idea if this is just us and my content or if this is the world over, especially Covid 19. But Wednesdays is always a quieter day. So what that means in terms of people that are attending, whether they’re here now or whether you know, or just about to arrive, is this will be a much more one-to-one. I’m looking backwards and forwards just taking this, you know, um, whether there’s questions coming in. Gareth, good to see you. Thanks for being here, coming in.
Nathan Simmonds:
Claire’s with us as well. Thank you for being here. Again, Claire. Absolute pleasure. I was just saying Wednesday’s pattern of people attending tends to dip down quite significantly in comparison to other days. Monday and Tuesday’s always really busy, like with lots of people. Wednesday dips right off and then Thursday, Friday comes back up. Very strange kind of pattern of how things fall in GoToWebinar when we’re delivering this content. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to make this as individual as possible. So you have an absolute open book here. Open opportunity to ask as many questions as you like about giving feedback. Okay? So I’m going to fly through some of the key content that we’re going to look at today, but if you have specific questions about feedback that you want to deliver or a scenario, so let’s make sure that we’re not including names or we’re changing the names to protect the innocent as we always need to in an in open environment. And this will be shared on our YouTube channel.
Nathan Simmonds:
Any questions you’ve got in got for me about specific scenarios, specific cases, structuring, this is the time to do it because there’s a handful of us and we’re going to make this really detailed and in depth for you. Is everyone good with this? Yes or no? But hope the answer. Will be. Positive. Good, good, good. So I remember and remember on the earlier sessions I said the question, is there a feedback that you need to be giving to someone? Is there a piece of, uh, information that you need to be providing to someone to. Help them bear with me working. Microphones not working. Or I might be quieter than normal. There we go, using new . So is having that person in mind, having that, you know, that piece of feedback that you want to deliver, have that in your head and have that ready to build this structure up.
Nathan Simmonds:
Everyone good? Everyone ready to go? I am finished my tea. Let’s get everyone set up for success before we do anything. One is, so mobile phones, hold ’em high. Let’s light up that little airplane. Let’s make sure we’ve got, we zero out the distraction, a hundred percent attention on what we’re doing here. Making sure that you have a drink. So making sure that you’re keeping yourself hydrated and your brain lubricated to make sure this learning sticks. And finally, as always, third key piece of information, fresh page, fresh thinking. Let’s make sure that you’ve got something you can reread that’s going to remind you and reignite that thinking as you go back to keep the thinking expanding. What are we covering day three of feedback day ones? Well, let’s do a super fast recap. Day one. Day one was all about them taking action.
Nathan Simmonds:
It’s all about also, um, what else did we have down there? The difference between it being constructive and destructive, but that’s all about the delivery. It’s not about the content. There is no such thing as good or bad feedback. It’s always a gift. And it’s always what you think, what you think of someone is how you treat them. And what you think of a situation is what it becomes. They too. So yesterday, what are we having here? Make it specific. So when we’re thinking about that person, that feedback that we need to be giving, let’s make sure it’s specific about a thing. Okay? It’s also timely. It’s being dealt with in the right way or it’s being parked so that it can support you in delivering that conversation later.
Nathan Simmonds:
And then the third part we started looking at was the said model. Everyone remember what they said? Everyone’s squabbling through their notes right now to have a look at what they are. So remember, it’s the standard, the situation and it’s the distance or gap between them. It’s the action. We want to talk about the impact and a desired outcome. Flying recap. Everyone good? Everyone good with this? What we covered everyone, everyone remember what we’ve looked at day one and day two? cause it’s important we understand this and we’ve got this in place as we start to go into the next stage. So the next stage as we move into this then is, as I’ve said before, no one likes being told what to do, Okay?
Nathan Simmonds:
No one in their right mind enjoys being told what to do unless it’s them telling them to do it. Okay? We as human beings, we, we are very strange creatures for some reason I don’t like being told what to do unless it’s me telling me to do it. And that’s okay. What’s the different? If it’s good for me, then it should be should be okay for someone else to tell me what I need to do. When it comes to giving feedback, the idea is that we ask more questions. As I started breaking that down yesterday, to help that person come up with their own realizations and be able to take the responsibility for their own behaviours and what they need to do. And then it’s them telling them, it’s them making that decision. It’s them going, I’m going to do this instead and going in a different direction.
Nathan Simmonds:
And when we go back over previous sessions and when we’re looking at influencing skills, asking questions to help people understand the world in a, in a better way is actually the key to influencing. You have no right to tell anyone what to do. And you remember me saying this, you have no right to tell anyone what to do. You only have the, you’re going to only do two things. Be the example and be the invitation. What they want to do. That’s up to them. When we’re giving feedback, there is a time and a place to tell people what to do. And that’s based on two things, whether it’s dangerous, I can hope you can see the red on there. Just about the only time that you tell people what to do when you’re giving feedback is if it’s dangerous or urgent. Okay?
Nathan Simmonds:
So if you are working in a factory and they’ve got, you know, wearing machines and um, blades and whatever, and you see someone mucking around with a, with a meat slicer and they haven’t got the protective gloves on, or they’re mucking around with a knife or doing whatever, or they’re putting a screwdriver in a live socket, you know, now is not the time to ask questions. Okay? That would be like getting to the end of an episode of 24 with Jack Bauer, for those of us that remember that and he’s sitting there with the bomb and it’s ticking down and he is got eight seconds left before the bomb’s going to explode and wipe out the whole of New York City. And you come over and go, what, what? Why do you think you would prefer to cut right now in this current situation?
Nathan Simmonds:
And before you’ve even got to the end of the question, half of the east coast of America’s just been wiped out by nuclear bomb. There is a time and a place for the questions. This is not it, okay? This is the time that you have to be super clear with people and super direct. You can still use the said model and we’re going to bring that back up on the board here. No, because we already know what the standard is, but if we sit there and discuss what the standard is with that person, they’re likely to lose a finger. Right Now. This thing, this sort of behaviour, this action, this situation needs to stop. We need to have a con as soon as you stopped it, that that stopped, this needs to stop right now. This is dangerous. Okay, let’s have a conversation about the actions.
Nathan Simmonds:
What’s caused this current behaviour? What’s caused this current situation? What is it about this, um, these current actions is acceptable. So we’re starting to question into this space here. So we’re starting to say I need to have a conversation about the current choice of behaviour. So we stop them about the current choice of behaviour and what’s the impact of that. So we jump in here, the impact is that if this continues to happen, someone may lose their finger. So, which is why this has had to have stopped. We have two choice. The cost is if this continues to happen, the finger will be lost and potentially someone dies because that can happen in factory environments. We wish it, we know, we hope it doesn’t, it can happen. The other option that we have when we provide an alternative in our desired outcome here, the alternative is if this behaviour changes and is, you know, is amended to this or is changed in this way, this will be the benefit of that. As in the work will get done.
Nathan Simmonds:
We’ll meet quota, everyone goes home with all their bodily parts and everything continues. And that’s a very fast, uh, kind of example thrown out there. So in here we talk about now we, we demonstrate the cost and also give an alternative option with the benefit. Hoping you can see that just So when we are looking at the feedback in a critical situation or a level one, well I say level one, uh, type of delivery, which is someone that may be new to the business, doesn’t know needs some more instruction, we can start to use a little bit more tell and a little bit more guidance. So when it’s dangerous and urgent, stop people tell them to stop. We need to have a conversation about, it’s immediately pulled ’em away from the situation before dial that.
Nathan Simmonds:
Has anyone had this sort of experience dealing with a dangerous or urgent situation where you’ve had to stop someone and give feedback in that moment? Yes or no? Yes. Got a couple of yeses coming in. So think about those examples and those moments and experiences you’ve got and start to think about how this model will then overlaying that and change the dynamic of that conversation. How it would, um, change the structure. The first thing is we want to stop it, stop that. That’s not okay. So what we’re actually doing is we are putting the standard in place. We’re clearly setting out that that is not okay and it needs to stop and you are telling them what you are stopping. So there’s going to be a choice of behaviour and activity need to stop that behaviour and we need to stop the action. So if you remember from yesterday, it was about the thing, we’re not going to know. Why are you doing this? ’cause the moment we start saying why are you doing it?
Nathan Simmonds:
It’s, it’s our emotions that are coming up and we’re attempting to project that onto the individual. And then by doing that we make the situation a motive. And it comes back to what you think of them and the situation that then that then fuels and charges that. So we stop them by clearly letting them know the situation. The standard is not okay, we stop the choice of action or choice of behaviour. We need to stop that behaviour right now, or this behaviour needs to uh, stop. What is it? And then we start to look at this. What I observed is this. So I observed a choice of thinking. I observed this kind of, kind of behaviour. I observed these interactions that is causing a, you know, potential risk. So I’m telling them what the actions are that I saw. ’cause they may not realize what they’re doing is dangerous.
Nathan Simmonds:
The impact of that is that if that behaviour continues, someone may get hurt, it may break a machine. What’s the imp no the impact to the customers. They may not get that product on time. The impact of the business means that actually someone gets, um, hurt here and there was an investigation which then causes us to stop business and a lot of people potentially lose their jobs. So we are giving them our expertise and our clarity of what we can see. So we’ve ticked this, we’ve told them the actions we’ve seen and we’ve told ’em what the impact is if that continues desired outcome. Now we, and we talked about, you know, if this continues, the cost of that will be X, Y, and Z. It’s the impact. The alternative action is if you change it to this action or this behaviour or you know, this approach, the benefit of doing that will be X, Y, and Z. But so we, and I’ll come back to that but in a second, clear standard, clear understanding of the behaviour.
Nathan Simmonds:
What are the actions that you’ve observed? I observed these actions. So it’s all ownership, it’s never secondhand. We never give secondhand feedback that’s not okay. Clearly demonstrate what the cost is and the impact of those actions on the customer, on the environment, on the job, on the business, on the whatever it is. I’m telling that from my experience, I’m helping to um, give that person my insights. Desired outcome. I’m reiterating this again ’cause it’s important. You want know I’ve explained what the, the cost potentially is. If that continues the opposite or the, the, the, the change of behaviour looks like this and this is the benefit of doing that. This is what it looks like for the team, for the business, for the product of the environment. And the reason I said but earlier is then we, it comes to this point where actually we have two options. We have the behaviour carries on and something bad happens. We have the behaviour changes to a suggested alternative and we have a benefit out of that.
Nathan Simmonds:
So although I’ve gone into a, a very direct mode with my feedback here, I still have two options to give to this individual. And my question, and this is, you know, super important and one that you need to get written down which is going to support you in having these conversations is based on those two pieces of information I’ve provided you that I’ve given you, what would you like to do moving forward? What option would you like to take me up on based on this conversation? Can everyone see what I’m doing here? Does this make, I’m hoping this resonates with people with potentially feedback. They’ve given conversations they’ve had by providing the two options. I’m still giving the individual an opportunity. I’m still letting them make a choice. I’m not telling them what to do.
Nathan Simmonds:
Although I’ve gone in initially and it’s dangerous and urgent and I’ve stopped that situation and and kind of hopefully, um, not equalized as the wrong window. I resolved that, that pending problem. I’ve then given it back to the individual and said, what would you like to do? What one of those two choices would you like? So I’m using a funneling question. So I’ve give them clear information and data and then I’ll follow the individual in to make a decision based on what they want to do. You know, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. And when we’re working in dangerous environments or um, you know, construction sites or production lines, whatever it might be, and we’re doing this then that, you know, we need to stop people occasionally, especially if they don’t know and they’re not used to it.
Nathan Simmonds:
You give them the two options and then the person says, hmm and we let them calculate and make a logical decision on what’s happening. And if the person, and this is an open question to everyone here. If the person says, do you know what option A, that’s the dangerous one I’m going to carry on with option A. What’s your next choice of action if that person in your work environment says they’re still going to carry on doing dangerous things which might, you know, impact their lives and other people’s lives, what are your next steps from that? I’ll wait for those answers to come in, just we’ll have a final mouthful of tea steely silence. Take the decision away from them. Protect them. Exactly this. This is our responsibility as a leader, especially working with individuals that don’t know better. You know, it’s no different to having small children, you know, with having small children, you know, maybe they don’t like having a bath.
Nathan Simmonds:
Maybe they don’t like having their teeth brushed. Does it mean that they don’t have a bath and don’t get their teeth brushed? And it’s the same with some of the people we work with. They just don’t know ’cause they’ve never, but if they want to make that choice, that’s okay. That’s up to them. We equal, I mean we neutralize, that’s the word I was looking for. We neutralize the problem and we remove them and put ’em into an environment where it is safe for them and others. Okay? When they suddenly turn around and say, well actually option B, that’s okay now I know thanks for sharing that with me. I didn’t realize that apologies, I’m going to go with option B and carry on with that. Fantastic. By doing that you’ve explained the standard to them, they’re clear that those actions aren’t okay.
Nathan Simmonds:
They know what the, the act, the, the impact will be if they continue, they’ve gone with option B. And in doing that, what you’ve done is you’ve clearly stated the standard so you know what’s going to be expected next time you know what the, the outcome in theory is going to be. And you also have an opportunity then to document that conversation if you need to. But need to, to go back to it and anchor it and say, okay, based on, you know, the conversation we had last time in the next one what fantastic. I’m really glad that you took on board that feedback. You’re doing X, Y and Z. Please carry on doing that amazing. Or alternatively they go back to it again or repeat it. You can say we’ve had a conversation. So by going through this we’re super clear with what we’re doing. Now some people, and it doesn’t always have to be kind of, you know, as forceful, it doesn’t have to be an emergency.
Nathan Simmonds:
If that person doesn’t know they’re new to the business now it’s going to be urgent to make sure they do know. So go, okay, let’s have a conversation about the, the current work web. Let’s have a conversation about the choice of language. Let’s have a conversation about how we’re going to approach the, the future project and we can start to set the standard and we can start to, you know, reshape and, and um, direct some of the behaviours and actions. Hope this is useful. We’ve got little children crossing the rows to get the, the ball back. Exactly this, you know, it’s we, you see parents and then they do it from the absolute place of love when that happens and they and they scream absolute no blue murder. What’s been useful so far from what we’ve covered today in this session? This is where it’s 22 minutes.
Nathan Simmonds:
What have you picked up that’s been useful for your feedback conversations to help them, you know, get better results. Just wait for that to comment and then we’ll see what else we can add up. Even in an urgent situation, you can follow the model. Yes, absolutely important to provide options. Absolutely. It’s too easy when we’re giving feedback that, you know, I know best I’ve been here for ages, I’m just going to tell, tell, tell, tell, tell. But then what we end up doing is we make a rod for our own back and what happens is, um, that person will always work to be told what to do now. Oh, you didn’t tell me what to do so I did that. Yeah, but that was wrong. You could have used your initiative. Um, I, you know, I was waiting for you to tell me and you take out the innovation and initiative of an individual ’cause they’re always waiting to be told, understanding how to use a said structure.
Nathan Simmonds:
And this is just the first level the use of said is for, is a forceful way instead of tell even though, you know, they don’t want to be told it has forced. And we’re going to cover that a little bit tomorrow as well. Um, you know, in a super clear way that I’ve used it in a very inhumane way. Um, and I’ve been very direct and I’ve used that in order to dismantle someone’s argument. But also, you know, it’s very damaging to that relationship ’cause I used it thoughtlessly and heartlessly. ’cause the power of this falls into the fact that it’s the person who is deciding what they’re going to do. It’s their word, it’s their decision, it’s their options. It’s not me tell, tell, tell. It’s them telling them, which is what makes it so powerful.
Nathan Simmonds:
And when people can’t follow through on the options they take, sometimes that isn’t their fault. You know, people can only see, hear and act from the level of consciousness that they’re at. And what that means is they may say it at an intellectual level but they don’t understand it at a kind of heart level and they can’t follow through on it. It doesn’t give me any right though to take ’em apart with the next level of feedback that we provide. Hope this makes sense and we’ll talk about this a little bit more tomorrow. So yes, even dangers and urgent, we’ve got a clear structure and we can like start, as we start to prac practice this, we can start to peg our conversation into it to make sure we tick each of the boxes and when we get to the off bottom, we still want to give them the option so they can decide what they want to do based on what they’ve heard.
Nathan Simmonds:
Okay, this is level one for newbies for crisis situations. This is where we start with a little bit more instruction and a little bit more direction. What questions have you got for me about level one feedback delivery? What have we got here? Uh, how would you deliver feedback if you haven’t seen the event take place firsthand? For example, you haven’t seen the person be late, but you have been informed by someone else. Good question. One, if you can get a printout to prove that they’re late and you’ve got irrefutable facts, it’s still you giving the feedback that’s, you know, it is one, making sure you’ve got that information. Um, Two is no, you can’t give secondhand feedback. It’s not okay. What you can do though is you can have an open, honest conversation with that individual and just say, now what?
Nathan Simmonds:
I’ve received some feedback about this and I’d like to know more about it. So what happened on Tuesday? Know? Um, and, and depending on what work environment you might even have C C T V, you know, and you can even, you know, you start to, to craft that, you know what, I’m, I’m aware of this. I happen to be looking at this and I notice this, uh, what, what’s the expected time of arrival, um, on a workday. And they’ll say nine o’clock. And they say, okay, great. Fantastic. So what happened on Tuesday that caused, um, the lateness? No, no, I haven’t said you are late. I just said what’s happened on Tuesday to cause the lateness? So we started to ask some questions to get some more information and one would hope over the course of time that you build a rapport with your team that actually you can have that conversation if you need to. Uh, uh, in such a way the person goes, you know what?
Nathan Simmonds:
Yeah, I’m really sorry. It was either they tell you and you build that in as part of the standard for next time. Um, or they’ll just go, yeah, it was, yeah, that’s it. Good hope that’s useful. Open with it comes to my explain some more open with it comes to my, my, my attention opens with it comes to my attention. Might to give some more clarity on that one. Colin, Any more questions coming in? We’ve got a couple more minutes. Secondhand feedback. Yes, It’s, yeah, secondhand feedback is a difficult thing because again, it’s that person’s perception. I’ve fallen and foul of this when my younger management years when someone said, I saw this and that’s out of order and you need to do something about it and that’s not okay, blah, blah, blah.
Nathan Simmonds:
And then you go in and go, this person’s just had a go at me and they’re having, and now I’m having a go at you and da, da da. And the person goes, it wasn’t me now I was doing this, this and this. And you go, oh, I’m really sorry for shouting at you. And all you’re doing is you’re coming back into that hurt people, hurt people scenario. This person’s had a profit at me. My ego started to take a bashing because it’s a member of my team and I don’t want to hear that and I don’t want to be having this conversation with this individual. I go and give them a hard time because I feel like they gave me a hard time, but actually what they saw isn’t the truth.
Nathan Simmonds:
And as the leader of that individual, I now feel like a complete idiot for not actually going and doing my fact checking and, and having a conversation about it. Um, I do when someone has raised a voice to a customer over the phone. Absolutely. Now is, especially when you’re a contact center, center environment as well, is understanding actually you need to get both sides of the equation. Yes, there’s a behaviour here that kind of needs to be drawn the line on, uh, but at the same time it’s just kind of, you have to get all the information. Now why has, and what’s the reason that your, the member of your team has raised their voice to the customer? A prime example, one of my team, um, who I’m still friends with now and he’s having a real argument with the customer and I’m, I’m sitting there looking at him like, what is going on?
Nathan Simmonds:
This is not okay, this needs to stop. And he’s like, and I even said, stop. And he put his hand up in my face, went and ignored me, and I was like, what is going on? Blah, blah, blah, blah. I, you know, I was like, this is, you know, way too dynamic and not okay. Finishes the call. And I was like, what’s going on? He’s like, no, no, no, it, it was absolutely fine. You, I remember the customer and I were, you know, having a great conversation. I was like, yeah, okay, that no. Went back to listening to it. And yeah, they were having a really heated discussion and okay, I had to have, give feedback about kind of the, the whole kind of shutting me down in a conversation, especially in the team environment. I went back and sway to the customer and I said, I’m really sorry about what’s happened here. You know, I, I’ve listened to some of this, it’s not okay.
Nathan Simmonds:
Really concerned. And the guy said, no, that’s absolutely fine. Having a great conversation. Really enjoyed it. Um, you know, loved the honesty, loved the, you know, the, I was like, it doesn’t make any sense. I still had a conversation with, you know, the member of my team to say, look, you know, at this level, at this volume, in this way, you know, this is the impact of that and we need to look at how that’s, you know, what’s the impact on the team? You know, what’s the thinking of those individuals that see that sort of behaviour? Okay? So, you know, there’s different elements and making sure you have all the facts before you move forward in that, um, Fabian’s coming in, my approach on secondhand feedback is that way bring the team value up and ensure the discuss impact. We discuss impact on them also engagement and credibility. Yes, yes.
Nathan Simmonds:
And sometimes what you see isn’t the truth. Sometimes, you know, it’s a snapshot. And again, perception is reality isn’t is that person’s reality, it’s not actually reality. So what they see may have offended them for what, you know, in whatever terms we’re not talking about, uh, isms or um, equality or anything like that. They may have said something, you know, in on an offhand turn to someone or whatever, or an action that may not have computed with their expectations. They then, you know, it is about understanding, okay, well actually let’s make sure that we’re supporting the people in our teams get that understanding. So they continue to build their own profile, their own credibility and their own brands in their work environments.
Nathan Simmonds:
And that’s what we’re encouraging here to understand. Hope this is useful. Hope you’ve all got no looking at that structure. Just going to wrap up now looking at this structure and starting to think about that feedback that you need to deliver and you are going to deliver where each of these elements or what questions and what points start to fit into this so that you can have that. Um, what do we got here might be for tomorrow? Receiving feedback. What if my map or perception of the situation event is different to theirs? What questions are validation? Um, how to make the choice to let it or let it pass. Um, I know the said model may prevent this. Yes, yes. Some of that will cover tomorrow and I’ll make sure that Colin, I’m going to make sure I copy that and, and give myself a nudge to incorporate that.
Nathan Simmonds:
The last part or the last answer I’m going to give on that, choose your battles. You know, if, um, we will cover this tomorrow when we look at the checklist to make sure you are the reason why you are delivering the feedback. There’s a five point checklist that you have to go through every single time. And if you don’t and you cannot tick every single one of those points, you do not give the feedback. Thanks for reminding me, Colin, appreciate it. Because you know, when you go through that checklist, each one of those, and I’m giving you the, and the preface for it is basically checking your ego. ’cause if you are going there full of ego and emotion, you’re not actually delivering feedback, you’re just going there to tell someone what you think of them and what you think of them isn’t the truth and isn’t their reality and you have no idea what’s going on for them.
Nathan Simmonds:
Hope this is useful. Pick your battles. Good everyone look massive. Thanks for being here today. I know I did it again, I dived straight in with the information. As always, if you haven’t signed up for tomorrow’s session and get the link in the chat box. Thanks Sarah. Maybe we should just do this automatically in just, it will remind me to say it as we start these sessions. Um, I might have thought about that, you know, nine weeks ago when we did actually start this. If you have not signed up for tomorrow’s session, if you know someone that would benefit from that, the link is there. Click on it, make sure you’re signed up. If you know someone else that will benefit from delivering feedback, the link is there. Share it with them, get them involved, get them inside as well. Okay. I’ve also put the screenshot up there with the leadership coaching card.
Nathan Simmonds:
If you haven’t got your coaching cards, now is still the time to do that five pound ridiculous amount of value on there. I think there’s even a, you know, if you put a testimonial, I think there’s an option there to get a free pack at some point as well. So if you buy a pack, put a testimonial in, you get a free pack, which means you can go and give it to someone else in the business as well. The mind boggles absolutely boggles. And as always the final part is how can I help, how can I help you help more people inside your business to get better results? There is the link for the virtual classrooms. If there is anything that you need as a business, if there’s anything you need as an individual and you want to talk about coaching, you want to talk about virtual classrooms, let’s have a conversation.
Nathan Simmonds:
Let’s get me on a screen in a room, whatever it looks like to help you and your people be the best versions of themselves in the work that they’re doing. Okay? Phenomenal. Great share, thanks for being here. Really appreciate this and I will look forward to seeing you at one o’clock tomorrow. Many thanks.
