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Expert Tips for the World of Negotiation
Join Darren A. Smith, Dr. Anthony, and Andrew Stotts from the Weird Human podcast, as they tackle how to be a better negotiator.
You Can Read the Full ‘Better Negotiator’ Transcript Below
Andrew Stotts:
So guys, so first of all, welcome to another edition of the Weird Human Podcast. Our 25th actually. So we’ve got some fantastic guests again today. Huge. As usual. I’m joined by the brilliant Dr Anthony, but also today, which I’m joined by the Fantastic Darren Smith. I’ve known Darren for many, many, many, many years. And we’ve worked together in different organizations around the world, which has been fantastic. Today’s question, just to remind you guys, is really how can I be a better negotiator?
Andrew Stotts:
And before we kind of tackle the question I’d like to just remind you upon the mission statement, really for the Weird Human Podcast. That mission statement is really about exploring the extraordinary about the human beings who are around us. And that’s a very, very important point. So it’s about making you and really kind of bringing out the extraordinary of being a human being. So, Darren, perhaps it’ll be helpful for the people who are listening, just to have a brief introduction from yourself.
Darren Smith:
So we are MBM, we’re also known as the Sticky Learning Guys. We are the guys who want to achieve behavioural change with you because we know that most people go on a one-day training course, come back and do nothing different. So we’re the guys that ensure by prodding, poking, doing everything we can, you come back and be the very best version of yourselves. That’s me, Anthony.
Andrew Stotts:
That’s a great introduction. Dr. Anthony. I can’t believe, we did a show last week. That show actually had had more than 11,000 views now. So again, massive thanks to Michelle. That was the one around kind of like wealth coaches and kind of like tips around kind of money. So if you want to go back and look at the catalogue that’s an incredible episode. We also started to delve into the kind of relationships and kind of what made relationships. Then of course that kind of took us into the path around negotiating, particularly between couples. Dr Anthony’s obviously married to Dr Michelle in the previous show.
Andrew Stotts:
The first time I met his beautiful wife. We obviously then started to explore kind of what made their relationship successful and that kind of brought us to our conversation today. So if I can go back. So Dr Anthony, love you, my friend.
Dr Anthony:
I hope that Darren can actually then teach me how to negotiate better because there’s one thing for certain, every man is know how to negotiate better to be a good man. You start to seek love, that’s for sure. Darren, how do you negotiate?
Andrew Stotts:
How do you?
Darren Smith:
Well, I’m starting to feel like I should have some awards on the wall like you’ve got because wow, they’re very impressive. The first thing that we need to do in answering that question is understand the difference between haggling and negotiation. Now, there are eight ways to solve a conflict. Haggling is one, negotiation’s another. So, Andrew, I know you do this. You’ve been to the bizarre market stores and you’ve haggled for the Ray-Bans, and you started at 40 Euros, didn’t you?
Andrew Stotts:
That’s just an obscene amount of money for those, the Ray. I’m kind of more in the two-euro range, to be fair.
Darren Smith:
So we’ve all been there, haven’t we? We’re trying to buy these Ray-Bans, we’re on holiday and the guy behind the stool starts at 40 euros, we start at two, and you meet somewhere in the middle. A valid form of resolving a conflict. But don’t kid yourself that it’s negotiating. It is not. It is haggling. Now, if you get a chance, Andrew, look up on Google, a Monty Python sketch about haggling. It’s really brilliant about how to do it. So I love that. But let’s come back to negotiating. First thing is to know the difference between the two.
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah. It is fascinating because as soon as you talk about kind of the Friday market for me it was the Friday market. So we lived in Kuwait for a long time and brought my children up in Kuwait primarily. There was a fantastic location called the Friday market and there were lots of kind of Ray-Bans available and Oakley bonds and other kind of like sunglasses, let’s put it that way. And other kind of curious merchandise, which is always quite fascinating. The challenge I always had was that my daughter was always too quick to kind of like share her position when she was negotiating. So she wanted to buy. She had in her mind a particular pair of Ray-Bans.
Andrew Stotts:
So she would kind of go into the market and she would find the Ray-Bans that she wanted and then obviously start to salivate around these Ray-Bans. And of course, my big concern around that was that as she was salivating, I was kind of watching the store owner who was also going, whoa. Now I’ve got dad by the short and curlies. Effectively I can charge my 40 kinds of euros as opposed to the two euros for the Ray-Bans. And it’s a nightmare. So I would have to then come discreetly grab my daughter and sort of take her away and say, we’re not going to have to find those Ray-Bans on another store.
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah, there were other stores, but it was often quite a pain finding them because she had a particular taste in Ray-Bans. So then we would eventually find them. But I would say when you go there, do not show your position. I think that’s a really, really important point. So I’m kind of curious, Dr Anthony, to understand about kind of positional and why we shouldn’t really be sort of showing our position when we’re negotiating.
Dr Anthony:
Well, it’s letting the cat out of the bag. I mean, no one actually goes in with a cat out of the bag up front. Negotiation is about getting to a point where both parties find an amicable agreement. And if you leave the cat out of the bag, then you have no back foot to actually reverse back onto. So it is a gift. It is a skill and it can be learned. That’s why we’re speaking to the master Darren himself. So Darren talking about negotiation, how do you negotiate with a five-year-old? They have their own way and they wanted their way. Is there any negotiation? You tell us.
Darren Smith:
Well, I’ll tell you what I’m going to do. I’m going to give you some great advice here. Dr. Anthony, I’ve been negotiating and teaching for 30 years and I used to run a billion-pound portfolio and I’ve learned one thing. You don’t negotiate with kids, you won’t win. I don’t win. I’ve never won with my kids. It’s just not worth it. So what I do is I put all my energies into winning at work.
Andrew Stotts:
That’s a great question.
Dr Anthony:
Brilliant.
Andrew Stotts:
So how do we get better then? As human beings, how do we get better at negotiating? So what are your kind of top tips, Darren?
Darren Smith:
So the first thing is, let’s understand the difference between haggling and negotiation. Yeah. So once we’ve got those, we’re then negotiating. Okay. The next thing on negotiation is preparation. Now, Andrew, what you do or others do for preparing for a negotiation is they normally open PowerPoint and start typing.
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah.
Darren Smith:
They create their slide and their images and the ooh, ah, blah. But here’s the thing. PowerPoint is not a negotiation preparation tool. There I said it.
Andrew Stotts:
I agree because what I tend to classically see when we are putting people through you know, real playoff simulations around negotiation, which I think is quite fascinating. Is people tend to when you give them a scenario to negotiate 100% of the time, particularly if they’ve had no real exposure to professional negotiating, they tend to come only from their position. Yep. So they prepared their position and they’re kind of like fairly fixed on that. It normally takes me about a day to knock out the idea that they’re going to give their position away because they’re kind of walking with their position. This is my position, this is what is what my boss has agreed, this is how much I’m prepared to pay for whatever it is, bang on the table.
Andrew Stotts:
For me, it’s the biggest kind of no-no. When we’re negotiating. I think we need to be, I always say to people, we need to try to start to. It’s back to one of my Coveys, which is, you know, seek to understand before you seek to be understood. So if you understand, if you can be lucky enough to get Darren’s position or Dr Anthony’s position early part of the conversation, actually that’s really useful to you as a negotiator. Because you’ve got basically then a very nice set kind of framework. So I know you have a really cool framework, Darren. Perhaps you could share that framework with us.
Darren Smith:
It’s very simple. So there’s a template available online because we realized a long time ago that people needed a preparation tool. Something simple, easy to understand, easy to use. I’ll just draw a part of it here, Andrew so you can see. It’s a downloadable free template and we call it the square dance. We’ve never quite understood why we call it that. But do see do and all that seems to conjure up people.
Andrew Stotts:
It kind of works for me, Darren. That kind of works for me.
Darren Smith:
Sort of does, doesn’t it? I mean, you’ve done a band dance and so have I.
Andrew Stotts:
I’m not sure I like it. What are your thoughts on band dances, Dr Anthony? Any kind of thoughts on band dances? Have you ever been to a band dance in South Africa?
Darren Smith:
It took the wrong time to negotiate. Let Darren talk.
Darren Smith:
I’ll do what the man said. So there’s this A4 template we’ve created. Download it for free, it’s all yours. And roughly it looks like this. What are you hoping for? What are you going to walk away with? But here’s the bit that most people miss apart from preparing, what are you prepared to or one side give? And what are you prepared to take? Now these left and right hand column are absolutely essential. We call them the grease that keeps the negotiation engine turning. Most people hit a stalemate because they’ve either declared their position or got someone else’s position and can’t move forward. These, and this help you to keep it moving forward. By completing this simple template, you have confidence in what’s going to happen in your negotiation. Sorry, go on.
Andrew Stotts:
I think that’s because I have a very similar kind of model to you. So I always talk about kind of my WAP or my walkaway price when I’m negotiating. So I’m kind of clear about that in my head. I have what I call my ZOPA. So my ZOPA is my zone of potential agreement. That’s basically where I’m trying to work. At the bottom of my ZOPA, I tend to focus on my kind of walkaway price. Where basically there’s no negotiation after that. Obviously, I’m hoping to go more to what I would call my best opportunity really.
Darren Smith:
Yeah.
Andrew Stotts:
I want to get the most out of the negotiation, but I’m also kind of mindful of a few things. Probably one of the most important things for me is just the relationship when we’re negotiating. Because I think sometimes there are, I think, there’s a whole piece around kind of moral standards around negotiation as well. Because even when I’m negotiating in the Friday market around the Ray-Bans I still kind of feel that the man who’s selling me the Ray-Bans still has to make a living. He has to feed his children. I have a moral kind of like obligation. Perhaps everyone else has different values.
Andrew Stotts:
I think one of the big things I would say to people when I’m working with particularly helping people to negotiate is don’t believe that you have the same value set as Darren or Anthony. I will tell you that my value set is my value set. So you don’t necessarily know what Anthony’s value set is or what Darren’s value set is, or what the person you’re negotiating with is. So be kind of mindful of that. But I do think we have a kind of moral obligation as human beings to make sure that it’s kind of mutual. For me, a big part of that is developing the relationship.
Andrew Stotts:
Because even if you’re buying the kind of Ray-Bans, it’s likely that in the future you might want to buy other Ray-Bans or other merchandise from that store or that seller. So therefore, it’s kind of beneficial to kind of build a relationship over time that really kind of helps in negotiation process. I’d be kind of keen to hear your thoughts on that. So should we go to Dr Anthony and ask to get your views, Dr Anthony?
Dr Anthony:
Yeah, for me, it’s always about the answers and the question. I believe that when you negotiate at number one, don’t underestimate the person’s values because you don’t know their background. And also, as you know, culture plays a vital role. However, if you respect one another, and if you have the skill to purely be in agreement to ask a question, because you’ll realize the answer is in the question. Because all negotiations starts with how much, and you know when you’re prepared to walk away because you’re not prepared to go to that deal. So I think it’s a give and take as Darren was saying.
Dr Anthony:
I actually can see the square dance happening in my mind in terms of what you want. When will you walk away, what will you give, what will you take, and how do you come to an agreement? So I actually think it’s simplistic, but you know what, Darren, it is powerful.
Darren Smith:
It is. It’s very powerful. And there are only these outcomes. This is all there is. The one I’d always advocate is win-win. Now my win is a bit bigger than your win, but it’s still win-win
Andrew Stotts:
Because it’s also one I’m mindful that there’s this one of the most powerful human emotions and it’s well worth kind of flagging it here. I’m definitely aware of it is just that emotion of revenge. So if there’s a percept. So if, I mean, that’s why I would generally encourage people to avoid positional negotiation because, and particularly right the way through the negotiation. Because at the end of it, even if you kind of say, ha I’d have paid, you know, 35 bongs for the Ray-Bans or whatever and actually, he says, well, I would’ve sold them for like 22 bongs, then you’re basically kind of setting that kind of revenge thing going. So, because people want to then in the future kind of claw that money back.
Andrew Stotts:
Now you could say, well, it doesn’t matter because I’m in the Friday market and I’m never going to see the guy again. It doesn’t really matter. But I still feel it’s important that you never, ever kind of show your position. One of the biggest reasons for that is revenge. If I feel that I’ve lost to you in some way, it doesn’t matter what it is, then actually probably it’s going to trigger that very, very powerful emotion. Thoughts on that? You are a psychologist, Dr Anthony. Thoughts on kind of revenge as a powerful motivator?
Dr Anthony:
It is a motivator. I mean, because the thing is, what is the underlying factor under the revenge? I can tell you now when it comes to money and to negotiation, often it is greed. And that’s why people actually turn to revenge because actually, what was the real reason? Because maybe there’s subconscious and subconscious and the subconscious was greed and he doesn’t even know he’s being steered by it. And therefore, their reaction is revenge.
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah. So Darren, any kind of thoughts on revenge and how we avoid revenge in negotiation?
Darren Smith:
Well, I’m going to flip it a slightly different way and hopefully still answer your question. There’s a fantastic video online. It’s animated. It’s a guy drawing. I think it’s by Roberts Cialdini. It’s about the six laws of persuasion. One of them is really, really important for negotiation. There’s a piece that he shows in it around the power of common ground. In his example, it says, it can be really simple. It might be you like crisps and I like crisps. So I’ll bring that to life as a real-life example. We’re in tenor reef recently, and my son Jack is buying a pair of Ray-Bans and I’m moaning about how hot it is. Because I’m British.
Darren Smith:
That’s, that’s my right. The guy behind says you ought to know what it’s like in Senegal. Where I’m from it’s 49 degrees. We had a two, three-minute chat about how hot it was. He thought it was cold. I thought it was hot, and Jack got a better deal because of it. Common ground is really important in negotiation, no matter how small.
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah, I would agree. I completely agree with you. I mean, I think actually it’s building the relationship. If you can do that. Again, it’s back to kind of mutual interests really, because I think that’s a really, really important point. It’s kind of what we call mutual gains. Yeah. So the more that we kind of both feel. In Darren’s scenario, that’s the win-win, right? So Darren walks away from it and I walk away from it, and we both kind of feel that we’ve won. That’s called collaboration.
Andrew Stotts:
So there’s that kind of seat that we’re seeking kind of mutual gains from our negotiation as opposed to Darren wins, I lose, he lets me know that I’ve lost, and that kind of triggers that emotion of kind of revenge and I want to get back on him. Next time it probably significantly damages my relationship. So how do we basically explore those mutual gains? Darren, what are your thoughts on that?
Darren Smith:
You asked me how do you be a better negotiator? The next thing I’d share is this one. I’m just going to do one more drawing unless you ask me to draw a butterfly or something. That’ll go horribly wrong.
Andrew Stotts:
Oh, we’d like to see a butterfly. I think we’d much prefer to see a butterfly.
Darren Smith:
Is this one.
Andrew Stotts:
Next time.
Darren Smith:
Well, so I’m going to put an eye at the end of this just to create a mnemonic. So this is the next part that we need to understand to be a better negotiator. These are the four stages of negotiation. Now, if you were to research online, you’ll see 4, 5, 6, 7 stages. But let’s not make it too complicated. The bit that most people skip is the second one. Explore. They go straight into their position trying to negotiate on price, hit and style, mate, it’s all gone wrong. We escalate it. The second stage of negotiation is explore.
Darren Smith:
Ask a million questions to understand their position, understand them, understand what they want. I’ll give you a short example. So many years ago I was looking for a new car. I’m on the forecourt of a car dealership and I’m looking at a lovely two-seater red sports car. The guy comes over, jabbers in my ear, one vicar owner, 20,000 miles, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he’d never stopped to ask me one question. I’ve got three kids, I’m looking for an SUV. The fact I’m dribbling over this sports car, I’m never going to buy it. So what he should have done is started with the second stage, which is E, explore, and find out what I need.
Andrew Stotts:
That is kind of one of my top tips for being successful in life. Genuinely one of my top tips for being successful in life. Because people often say. I don’t know why they ask me that question, by the way. Just as a point. But often, I do get asked particularly by graduates or undergraduates. I do a lot of work with the universities and they often are very curious. I find it fascinating. They seem to be fascinating by my job title. Because I think everyone wants to be it, whatever my job title is at the time, they all seem to want to be that. So they asked me the question. They kind of they always ask me, well, what are the hacks stocks?
Andrew Stotts:
What are the kind of cheap ways? What’s the fast way to success? I’m like A, I don’t think I’m very successful. But B I think there are no hacks. I think there’s no kind of shortcuts. I think there’s only really hard work. But I always say to people, and it’s back to your point, Darren, that in my mind, if I understand what other people need from me, and I’m able to give them what they need, actually, you can almost write your own check. So I think that’s exploring. In that kind of relationship, you’re exploring what people need from you. It doesn’t matter if you’re a Barista, if you are working in a restaurant if you’re working as capital, whatever role you have.
Andrew Stotts:
It definitely applies in negotiation. Because when you can understand what their needs are and then you can match their needs against your product. Then of course there’s that kind of magic word that I would use, which is yes. So you ask them to explain what they’re looking for from the sunglasses or the car or the bag or the holiday or the flight or whatever it might be. Then you listen and you are sort of paraphrasing and summarizing as you’re kind of listening to and having that conversation. Then of course, the real trigger is then to match what you’ve heard and as you are matching those needs with your solution, then kind of seeking that magic three-letter word, which is yes.
Andrew Stotts:
Because if you do, if you get lots of yeses, so if I’m selling Darren the pen and I’m getting lots of yeses, what effectively happens then is I get the yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. When I get to the final kind of, Darren, so do you want to buy the pen or do you want to buy the holiday? If he kind of, it’s actually back to Cabrini and the six facts of influence. If you want that book, guys just ping me a DM and I can send you a copy of the book. I’d be delighted to do that. If basically at that point, he said yes 17 times, because I’ve done a really good job listening to his needs and I’ve matched my product against his needs, it’s almost impossible for him to say no.
Andrew Stotts:
If he does say no, then I’m basically overcoming those objections by doing more exploratory work. My point here to a very long point. But if I really understand what Darren needs from the pen or what Darren needs about the red sports car or the vehicle or the holiday, I then make a really great compelling argument with how I’m matching against those needs. He’s not going to really have any objections. He’s just going to get his wallet out and buy the car. Right? Or buy the holiday. So any thoughts on this, Dr Anthony?
Dr Anthony:
I just think what you’re doing is saying exactly the way that it works. Because the thing is, it’s a process. Everything in life there is a process. It’s a process in terms of how life works because A becomes from B, B in front of C and there’s a sequence A, B, C. I think if you have a process, you want to jump from A to C and you’ll never know what the value was of B. What you’ve described is knowing what you are wanting. What is your wish and what are you prepared to walk away with? I think that fell right into that square dance that Darren just explained to us.
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah, I think it’s a really good point. Anything you’d like to kind of add there, Darren,? I’m kind of putting some top tips up on the screen as we’re sort of speaking here. But Darren, any kind of additional kind of thoughts?
Darren Smith:
Let’s come back to what you said in relation to PEPSI. So we’ve got four stages of our negotiation structure. Prepare, where we use the square dance up here. Explore. So these two, I crossed them out because most people jump to stage three and wonder why they hit stoneway. Once you prepared and explored, you then propose and summarize. The I is just to make it an acronym. But they’re the four stages of negotiation. It’s something that people need to understand when they’re negotiating to almost lookup like a meerkat and think, okay, where am I now? I’m in the proposal stage. Okay, these are the behaviours I need to exhibit.
Andrew Stotts:
I always say to people, when you do get some agreement on something, it’s almost like particularly when it’s a very complex negotiation. I would say, when you’ve got a piece where maybe 30 or 40 areas where you kind of need to agree, but each time you get some broad agreement on something, it’s almost like taking that away from the negotiation, sort of putting it over to the right. Then you’re kind of moving on to the other 29 things you’re sort of negotiating. So then slowly. Then kind of going back to it. So we’ve agreed on these five things. Let’s do a quick recap on the five things that we’ve basically agreed on so far. Then basically let’s move on to the sixth and seventh things that we need to agree with.
Andrew Stotts:
That’s really I think that’s fantastic advice. But I think you’re right. People they go straight in and they also, I do a really fun activity with I don’t have a pen to hand. Yeah, well, I do have a pen. It’s here. Often it works when I throw a pen at someone. I say, sell me the pen and they just start talking about the pen. They don’t dream of kind of like finding out what’s of interest to me, finding a little bit about who I am, what would be important about the pen. They just throw the pen at me and they say, oh, well this is a lovely pen. It’s exquisitely made, yada, yada, yada. I don’t care if it’s exquisitely made. That’s not one of my needs. So, therefore, you’ve almost kind of like broken the relationship before you start. If that makes sense.
Dr Anthony:
Darren, isn’t it just about the connection? Because if there’s something that starts very good with is actually to make the connection, the engagement with the person before he tries to sell anything, whether it be a dream or purpose. I think that connection plays a role.
Darren Smith:
Well, I think so too. So you can tell I’m in a habit of writing these things. But I’m just going to do it because I think it’ll be interesting. There’s a fantastic equation called the trust equation. Not ours. One that’s certainly in public knowledge. What we need to create there is trust. Dr Anthony, you’re absolutely right. We’ve got to create trust. Trust is based on four parts, credibility, reliability, and intimacy. But all that can be killed if you are too self-orientated. So there are four parts to this murky trust relationship thing. So credibility, if you guys ask me about negotiation, you’d expect to have a decent answer and I hope I am.
Darren Smith:
Reliability. If you ask me to do something and I do it, I’m reliable. Intimacy is back to our common ground. I know a little bit about you, you know a little bit about me, but if I just waffle on about myself, trust is gone.
Andrew Stotts:
Trust, I think is probably the most fragile thing. Because you can’t really recover it. My kind of final kind of like tip really for this session is really about believing that their problem is their problem. Because actually in a negotiation, whatever that problem is, it’s a shared problem. We should be seeking a kind of mutual agreement to solve the problem. I think too often in negotiation I’ve experienced, I see people just saying, well, that’s not my problem. That’s your problem. Of course, that’s not really going to help the negotiation at all. If I just kind of like throw my hands up and say, well, I don’t really care. That’s your problem. This is my position.
Andrew Stotts:
I’m fixed. I’m showing. I was kind of mindful of when we’re talking about negotiation. I always had this lovely story when my son was about two and a half years old, and I’d taken him swimming. When I’d taken him swimming, like any sort of two-and-a-half-year-old, they get cold and they get hungry and they don’t want to have a shower and they just want to have chips or whatever. So I remember sort of getting him out of the pool, taking him downstairs, he was kind of kicking and screaming. He didn’t want to leave the pool.
Andrew Stotts:
It was freezing cold. It’s in the UK so it’s not in the Middle East where we live now, freezing cold somewhere in suburban. He’s kicking off and I’m basically bribing him with the idea that he’s going to get some chips and some nuggets at the end of the experience. I’m a very bad father. But anyway, let’s move on from that. My point here is that I was then listening to a conversation that was happening in a cubicle next to me. So a similar father with a similar age child. Then the father basically went back to kind of positioning and he basically said these kinds of immortal words, which have never ever left my mind.
Andrew Stotts:
If you don’t get in the shower and get dressed, we are never coming swimming again. Yeah. As he said that, I thought you have just lost, because at some point unless he really doesn’t want this, maybe puts his son’s life in danger when not taking him to swim. At some point in the future, he’s going to have to take his son swimming. Right. At that point, the child will know that the behaviour that he’s been exhibiting is basically going to work because he can still get his own way. So I’m curious to there must be something psychological about that. Well, why do children do that, Dr Anthony?
Dr Anthony:
It’s because it’s a lack of consequence management in parenting. That is if the child understands that consequence before the time, they will actually change their behavior. It’s because we actually want to please them. We want to win their favour because we’re scared they’ll stop loving us. But if we do consequence management, that’s true love.
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah. It’s actually amazing. Dan, any kind of final thoughts? I’m conscious we’re almost at the end of our little show. I think we’ve done some really amazing pints. I think it’s been quite very fascinating, actually. Very, very fascinating conversation. Any kind of final thoughts?
Darren Smith:
I think one of the toughest parts of negotiation that we don’t teach is the follow-up. Once we get the deal. So at stage four where we’ve summarized, everyone’s agreed, then we walk away and the deal falls apart because we think we’ve summarized, but we haven’t really done it very well, is follow up and adding consequences. So if you don’t deliver it by Monday, what happens? The invoice goes up by 2%. I think those conditions and consequences are really important to achieve adherence to the deal you think you’ve got.
Andrew Stotts:
I think that’s a really, really good point. I think people sometimes are afraid to ask for the deal as well. I’ve seen that a lot. I mean, people generally get fairly terrified. Why do you think people are so scared about asking for the deal, Anthony, particularly when we’re negotiating?
Dr Anthony:
Fear of failure, no one likes to fail.
Andrew Stotts:
It’s reject. It’s kind of, I suppose it’s the rejection, right? Because I think that’s half the battle because I’ve done a great job in listening and understanding what my needs are. I’m kind of matching it. I’ve done such a good job with my needs analysis. I’m doing really good now matching of those needs. I pretty much won’t have any objections to overcome. Then, unfortunately, time and time and time again, I see negotiators basically then kind of walk away without kind of setting a timeframe. So I think it’s worth just kind of recapping what you were just saying then, Darren, about setting a timeline for the next steps.
Darren Smith:
It is. Also, the reason we struggle is because it’s conflict. Negotiation is conflict. Haggling is conflict. Let’s not make any bones about it. Conflict is hard. So what we need to do is get stage four where we summarize the deal, and then what we’re doing is adding conditions or consequences, which we discuss as part of the negotiation. The negotiation is not over. If we don’t achieve X, Y, and Z, that’s in the deal. But we have said we would then what do we do?
Andrew Stotts:
Yeah, it’s actually fantastic. Let’s just go back to obviously our favourite quick. We have a kind of question. Incredibly grateful and such an informative conversation. Dr Anthony and Darren Smith are amazing today. Really enjoyed talking to you about this topic and this question. Just to remind you guys, we’ve been talking today about how can I be a better negotiator. Of course, you know we love your questions. You’ve had it on the ticket going below there. So we love your questions, but if you’re listening to a recording or you’re listening to us live let us know. I know that Darren and Anthony and definitely myself, are very responsive to those questions.
Andrew Stotts:
So if you have anything you’d like to know, you want to know more about negotiation or some of the tools that Darren has in his toolkit or know more about how kind of we can help you with negotiation, please kind of feel free to kind of reach out. We do, of course, have a magical kind of like time machine in the weird human podcast. So here’s the question. If we kind of like let’s crank it up, let’s crank up the time machine, and we’re going to go back then to when you were 18. So probably about, was it 2000 for you, the year 2000? Darren, you were 18 in 2000.
Darren Smith:
Probably a bit less, maybe 23.
Andrew Stotts:
I’m curious actually, when were you 18? What year were you 18?
Darren Smith:
Let’s see. Born in 1971. So what was that? 1989.
Andrew Stotts:
Oh, you’re an eighties child. You were living your best time when you were in the mid-eighties.
Darren Smith:
Oh, oh. I mean, Tony Hadley gold.
Andrew Stotts:
Wow.
Darren Smith:
Yeah. Wow. Adam.
Andrew Stotts:
Oh, oh, beautiful. So I’ve got my wall paint on, I’ve got my jacket. I’ve actually got one of those jackets. It’s really cool. I’ve got my jacket. I’m basically like bopping away to wham, wake me up before you go, go. I won’t sing it for you. We kind of like we’re in a bar somewhere and I’ve taken you back to meet the 18-year-old Darren. Darren, kind of what advice would you offer?
Darren Smith:
Oh, on negotiation or just generally?
Andrew Stotts:
Just on life, my friend. Just on life.
Darren Smith:
Okay. Well, when I was working at a DIY store, so my advice is when you hold the six-foot piece of wood and your colleague with the standing knife cuts it from top to bottom, it gives you 80 stitches.
Andrew Stotts:
Ouch. That’s really painful. I come back to that. Is that it? Just be careful when you’re holding bits of wood so you don’t get your hand sliced.
Darren Smith:
It’s only advice because I can’t.
Andrew Stotts:
Was it being queer home base? Was it being queer home base is what I want to know.
Darren Smith:
Home base. I can’t believe the idiot stood at the top and went to the bottom and by the time he got to the bottom, my thumb was on his head.
Andrew Stotts:
Ow. Now you are actually talking to Dr Anthony, who is also the dubious kind of privilege of being shot. So that was kind of his opening kind of gambit when I first met Dr Anthony. He’s telling me about being shot and we had like a great conversation about what it felt like to be shot. But what Dr Anthony is really gifted at is kind of writing an acronym or a mnemonic kind of negotiation. So very, very keen to kind of hear what that is. Let me just put my last point up and then I’m going to get ready with my keyboard now to type. He’s kind of like, I think we’re on negotiation today, aren’t we? Dr. Anthony. So what’s your acronym today?
Dr Anthony:
Okay. It will be the word negotiate. The N will be for nerve. Because let’s face it, you need to have the nerve to follow through because you’re nervous in starting off to negotiate anyway. Then the E it’s all about the expectation that you actually get into, because like Darren said, it’s what do you wish for? But when are you prepared to walk away? So the expectation is to be bottled. Then the G is for Guard. Guard yourself from judging the situation. Guard yourself from judging the person because you’re not going to get anywhere if you actually judge them beforehand. The O outcome.
Dr Anthony:
If you are not negotiating with an outcome-based in mind, that means you’re actually just messing around and you’re hacking. You’re not negotiating. The T is for talking. Now we understand that you either take or you don’t. Because there’s give and there’s take. So remain talking. Otherwise, you are not negotiating. Because when the person turns around and walks away not talking, you’re not negotiating anymore. The I is interest. Be involved in their interest. Don’t just go for positioning of what your positioning. It’s taking interest in the person taking interest of the process that is taking place. The A, the key is agreement. Because when you can execute to the agreement, you are negotiating with a purpose that actually did work.
Dr Anthony:
The T Tango. Because that’s a square dance template that Darren was speaking about. Go for the tango because you want to make sure when you negotiate you go for the square dance template and you put it to work. Then lastly, the E efficiency. If you’ve learned today how to negotiate better, make sure that you’re efficient next time we need you to negotiate. That’s me.
Andrew Stotts:
That is actually awesome. I’ve got to ask, do you Tango? Do either of you Tango? I just love it. It’s a sense of a woman. I love the I love the scene in sense of woman. Where they’re kind of like, is it Tango? I think it’s a Tango, isn’t it?
Dr Anthony:
Tango is good. Tango’s sort of facing off, but round bar is better.
Andrew Stotts:
Ah, yeah. See now I’m ashamed. I can do a bit of a disco.
Darren Smith:
Back to the eighties. I used to break dance. Does that count?
Andrew Stotts:
Oh my gosh. Goodness. Fancy Ching has a bit of break dancing now, do you, Darren?
Darren Smith:
Oh, if only there was the time.
Andrew Stotts:
Devastating news. Just final, just a massive thank you to everyone who listens to us. We really, really appreciate it. My beautiful very, very incredible friend Darren Smith from Sticky Learning. If you need anything from Darren, just reach out and ask him. You can obviously leave your details. Direct message him where you can basically. He’s got some brilliant cards. I’ve been collaborating with him around some fantastic service cards recently. So yeah, make sure you kind of. I need those cards because I want to be plugging them to my team. I was talking to a bank a couple of days ago and they were fascinated by that concept we were talking about customer service. There’s an idea for a question. Dr Anthony, I love you, my friend as always. Speak to you all guys very, very soon. Take care, and stay safe out there.
Darren Smith:
Thank you, doctor.
Dr Anthony:
Thank you, Darren.
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